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Negative double?

#1 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2019-June-14, 04:52

I'd welcome some advice here. At pairs MPs, I hold, game all dealer N:

Playing acol, I open 1 expecting to rebid 1NT to show 15-17. 2 was explained as 'intermediate' i.e. showing good and opening values or just below.

Normally we'd play X as negative, i.e. forcing and showing some strength elsewhere. But after a jump overcall in ? I hesitated a long time. I can't call NT, I can't rebid , can I really show a 4-card suit at the 3 level? Or a 3-card ? Surely I'm not strong enough to cue-bid 3 - especially with my doubleton and partner passed first round.

After agonising over this, I passed. I thought, just possible it was a penalty double, like in old-style Acol.

You can guess what happened next. 2x just made :o , for a rank bottom for us. I apologised and partner was very understanding, albeit not best pleased!

Incidentally, partner held 852/K42/Q754/KQ2. I think with his hand he should have passed 2 anyway. But he's a very enthusiastic bidder!
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#2 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2019-June-14, 07:50

passing 2S X with 4 hearts is a strange choice to say the least :lol:
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#3 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-June-14, 08:42

Partnerís bid is not that enthusiastic! As he has sound values, just lacking the 4th H. Maybe he has to cover for you, if you are / arenít expected to re-open with a strong NT, or a weakest hand with long C?
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-June-14, 08:57

Where does he get his 8th trick from ? Did he have a 7th spade and dummy have an entry ? Otherwise the bidding may have been a lucky win but the defence let it down.
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#5 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-June-14, 09:08

Playing 4M Acol I'd open 1, the suit below the doubleton. The only response that might embarrass you is 2, but you can still rebid 2NT with 15-16 and it doesn't promise a stopper.

As everyone else said, you should have respected your partner's negative double - even though his hand was off shape and not quite right to compete - and bid 3. Most doubles (especially at a low level) are for takeout.
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#6 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2019-June-14, 10:00

Just rebid 3happy to have a 4th.
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#7 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2019-June-14, 12:17

View Postneilkaz, on 2019-June-14, 10:00, said:

Just rebid 3happy to have a 4th.
Yes that's what my partner told me :unsure: . Thanks everyone for the feedback. We all get it wrong sometimes!
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#8 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-June-14, 14:00

Partner had enough value for a negative double but lacked the 4 necessary for the double with a balanced hand. In any case, if a contract turns out to be poor because of partner's lack of a 4th , then that's on him/her.

Bid 3 . Your LHO has shown values which makes your three AJ's lose a little value. So I don't see upgrading this 15 count and making a stronger bid.
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#9 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-June-14, 14:19


661_Pete writes 'I'd welcome some advice here. At pairs MPs, I hold, game all dealer N. Playing acol, I open 1 expecting to rebid 1NT to show 15-17. 2 was explained as 'intermediate' i.e. showing good and opening values or just below.Normally we'd play X as negative, i.e. forcing and showing some strength elsewhere. But after a jump overcall in ? I hesitated a long time. I can't call NT, I can't rebid , can I really show a 4-card suit at the 3 level? Or a 3-card ? Surely I'm not strong enough to cue-bid 3 - especially with my doubleton and partner passed first round.After agonising over this, I passed. I thought, just possible it was a penalty double, like in old-style Acol.You can guess what happened next. 2x just made , for a rank bottom for us. I apologised and partner was very understanding, albeit not best pleased!Incidentally, partner held 852/K42/Q754/KQ2. I think with his hand he should have passed 2 anyway. But he's a very enthusiastic bidder!'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

CyerYeti seems right: Just looking at the 2 hands,
you both seem to have judged well, in the bidding, especially at match-points.
You were unlucky that 2X made.

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#10 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2019-June-14, 14:28

View Post661_Pete, on 2019-June-14, 12:17, said:

Yes that's what my partner told me :unsure: . Thanks everyone for the feedback. We all get it wrong sometimes!
partner knew when they doubled you might have to bid heats at 3-level.
Why are you being shy?
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#11 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-June-15, 00:46

Sirs.perhaps quite a few ,if not all, moderns may open this hand 1NT. And then a 2S overcall would make things rather problematic.Any idea how to proceed acting honest (1NT openers hand does not deny a spade stopper)
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#12 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-June-15, 01:08

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-June-15, 00:46, said:

Sirs.perhaps quite a few ,if not all, moderns may open this hand 1NT. And then a 2S overcall would make things rather problematic.Any idea how to proceed acting honest (1NT openers hand does not deny a spade stopper)

The OP plays weak NT from what I understand, si canít open a strong NT.
After a strong NT and a 2S over call, it is not an issue. Either N punts 3NT betting on a S stopper opposite, or he has a way (Lebensohl / Rubensohl) to show a GF hand w/o stop. Then you end up in 4 something which will not be a piece of cake either.
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#13 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2019-June-15, 11:09

View Postapollo1201, on 2019-June-15, 01:08, said:

The OP plays weak NT from what I understand, si canít open a strong NT.
After a strong NT and a 2S over call, it is not an issue. Either N punts 3NT betting on a S stopper opposite, or he has a way (Lebensohl / Rubensohl) to show a GF hand w/o stop. Then you end up in 4 something which will not be a piece of cake either.


As a weak NT player, I would choose to open 1N AJxx is a lousy combo. Happy to regard this as a 14 count.
I am a fan of opening minor before major on 4-4 hands but 1 is also fine, if that is your agreed style.

While we all would dbl with one less spade and one more heart, I still prefer it to pass. It says I have points and no spade stop ok p will believe I have 4 cards in hearts, but life is messy.

One rule that I ask my partners to obey, is when in doubt bid. Did we agree 1S 4H is a splinter? If in doubt bid! Is partners double penalty? If in doubt bid! Is 2N lebensohl or natural? If in doubt bid!
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#14 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2019-June-21, 19:33

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-June-15, 00:46, said:

Sirs.perhaps quite a few ,if not all, moderns may open this hand 1NT. And then a 2S overcall would make things rather problematic.Any idea how to proceed acting honest (1NT openers hand does not deny a spade stopper)
3NT values without a stopper (Lebensohl)
will probably end up in 4C
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#15 User is online   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-June-23, 10:54

Just out of curiosity, does opening 1 in Acol promise you having the balanced 15-17, or could you have a normalish distributional 12 count? After the negative double, I'm thinking you should bid 4, not 3. I'd bid 3h with xx Kxxx Kx AKxxx or something similar.

Just as an aside, you didn't discuss with your partner how high your negative doubles go? I normally play them as "on" after every suit bid up to 4.
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#16 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-June-23, 13:04

View PostHardVector, on 2019-June-23, 10:54, said:

Just out of curiosity, does opening 1 in Acol promise you having the balanced 15-17, or could you have a normalish distributional 12 count? After the negative double, I'm thinking you should bid 4, not 3. I'd bid 3h with xx Kxxx Kx AKxxx or something similar.


1C will either be 15+ balanced or unbalanced. Your example hand would open 1C, but it doesn't look much weaker than Pete_661's hand. Both are 3H bids.

For what it's worth, I would have opened 1H. It seems to me to be pointless to agree to play 4-card majors, then choose to open a minor anyway with this hand. But I know that others have other opinions!
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#17 User is online   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-June-23, 19:54

View PostTramticket, on 2019-June-23, 13:04, said:

1C will either be 15+ balanced or unbalanced. Your example hand would open 1C, but it doesn't look much weaker than Pete_661's hand. Both are 3H bids.

For what it's worth, I would have opened 1H. It seems to me to be pointless to agree to play 4-card majors, then choose to open a minor anyway with this hand. But I know that others have other opinions!

I think with my example hand you should bid 3h, but I disagree with the idea of bidding just 3h with the real hand. I agree with you that the auction was already messed up by not opening 1h. After messing it up, however, I think you need to show the extra value and hope that partner doesn't play you for a big 6/4.
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