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xyz when z is a suit

Poll: xyz when z is a suit (14 member(s) have cast votes)

what is your experience with xyz when z is a suit?

  1. never played xyz when z is a suit (1 votes [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

  2. tried xyz when z is a suit but stopped (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. currently play xyz when z is a suit with one or more partners (13 votes [92.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 92.86%

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#1 User is offline   rr9000 

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Posted 2019-June-11, 17:30

I'm interested to know how many people have tried xyz where z is a suit, and what their experiences have been.

Thanks!

RR9000
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#2 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-June-11, 17:48

It's good but does need some additional discussion - e.g. what do opener's transfer breaks mean?
The egos of bridge players seem to be larger than that of the general population. Which is actually pretty strange, when one considers how humbling a game it is... Michael Rosenberg
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#3 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-June-11, 17:54

XYZ is specifically designed to be a suit. If it's XY(nt), then it's a different convention.
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#4 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-June-11, 18:32

I mean, if you're not then it's some sort of 2 way NMF. The z being (potentially) a suit is what makes xyz xyz.
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#5 User is offline   rr9000 

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Posted 2019-June-11, 18:57

Some people consider xyNT a "form" of xyz. Some consider it a separate convention. If I'd just written xyz, some would be writing in that I should distinguish whether I'm including notrump or not. I thought I was opting for clarity.

RR9000
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#6 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2019-June-11, 22:12

 rr9000, on 2019-June-11, 17:30, said:

I'm interested to know how many people have tried xyz where z is a suit, and what their experiences have been.

Thanks!

RR9000


Bridge World suggested "any three bids at the one level including

"pass in competition after opening" counted to be able to start xyz.
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#7 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2019-June-12, 12:24

It is threads like this one that lead me to believe that players have a basic lack of understanding of some conventions.

XYZ is a convention that applies after ANY three bids at the one level. Z could be 1, 1 or 1NT.

XY(NT) is a convention that applies after any first two bids at the one level followed by 1NT. This convention is usually referred to as a form of checkback. 2-way checkback is very similar to XYZ when Z is 1NT.

There are a number of articles on the internet on the XYZ convention. And there are minor variations in the way some players play the full XYZ convention. If anyone is interested in a word document setting forth the manner in which I play XYZ with two of my regular partners, please message me.

I have been aware of the existence of XYZ for about 20 years. I finally broke down and agreed to play it about 2 years ago. All I can say is that I was a fool for the preceding 18 years (some would say longer).
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#8 User is offline   rr9000 

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Posted 2019-June-12, 13:24

So there seem to be several here who play xyz after opener's one level suit rebid. Whether or not you respond to a 1C opening with 1D or 1H on a 1=4=4=4 hand, what's your rebid with a minimum after opener's 1S rebid?

Thanks!

RR9000
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#9 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-June-12, 14:11

 rr9000, on 2019-June-12, 13:24, said:

So there seem to be several here who play xyz after opener's one level suit rebid. Whether or not you respond to a 1C opening with 1D or 1H on a 1=4=4=4 hand, what's your rebid with a minimum after opener's 1S rebid?

Thanks!

RR9000

If 1S is unbalanced, definitely 2N (puppet to 3C for sign-off in 3C or some slam try hands with exactly four cards in responders suit). If 1S could be balanced but promises four clubs, I still bid 2N most of the time (maybe not with weak clubs). If 1S could be 4333 I bid 1N and make a note to change our agreements.
The egos of bridge players seem to be larger than that of the general population. Which is actually pretty strange, when one considers how humbling a game it is... Michael Rosenberg
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-12, 14:15

 rr9000, on 2019-June-12, 13:24, said:

So there seem to be several here who play xyz after opener's one level suit rebid.

As others have said, it's inherent in the convention - it's only real defect is to be poorly named, it covers both xyz and xyn. "111" would be better.

 rr9000, on 2019-June-12, 13:24, said:

Whether or not you respond to a 1C opening with 1D or 1H on a 1=4=4=4 hand, what's your rebid with a minimum after opener's 1S rebid?

1NT of course.
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-12, 14:17

 cherdano, on 2019-June-12, 14:11, said:

If 1S is unbalanced, definitely 2N (puppet to 3C for sign-off in 3C or some slam try hands with exactly four cards in responders suit). If 1S could be balanced but promises four clubs, I still bid 2N most of the time (maybe not with weak clubs). If 1S could be 4333 I bid 1N and make a note to change our agreements.

I find this a bit weird.
2N in XYZ is what you say, sign-off in 3C or some slam try (we play it as showing big 5-5 hands), so how could you bid it with a minimum 1=4=4=4 as asked?
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#12 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-June-12, 16:39

 rr9000, on 2019-June-12, 13:24, said:

So there seem to be several here who play xyz after opener's one level suit rebid. Whether or not you respond to a 1C opening with 1D or 1H on a 1=4=4=4 hand, what's your rebid with a minimum after opener's 1S rebid?

Thanks!

RR9000

This is something you should think about before you open 1c. With 1-4-4-4, it's normal to open 1d planning to rebid 2c if your partner bids 1s. Usually, if you open 1c and bid 1n after your partner bids 1s with this kind of shape, you have really good clubs, really bad diamonds and a singleton A or K of spades. Otherwise, open 1d.
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#13 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-June-12, 18:58

 pescetom, on 2019-June-12, 14:17, said:

I find this a bit weird.
2N in XYZ is what you say, sign-off in 3C or some slam try (we play it as showing big 5-5 hands), so how could you bid it with a minimum 1=4=4=4 as asked?

2NT is a relay to 3 (pretty standard in my area) so you pass with a minimum hand. If you don't have a minimum signoff hand, you bid over partner's 3 bid.
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#14 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-June-12, 19:00

 HardVector, on 2019-June-12, 16:39, said:

This is something you should think about before you open 1c. With 1-4-4-4, it's normal to open 1d planning to rebid 2c if your partner bids 1s. Usually, if you open 1c and bid 1n after your partner bids 1s with this kind of shape, you have really good clubs, really bad diamonds and a singleton A or K of spades. Otherwise, open 1d.


You've misread the question. Responder is the 1=4=4=4 hand, not opener who has rebid 1 after opening 1
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#15 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-June-13, 07:30

View Postpescetom, on 2019-June-12, 14:17, said:

I find this a bit weird.
2N in XYZ is what you say, sign-off in 3C or some slam try (we play it as showing big 5-5 hands), so how could you bid it with a minimum 1=4=4=4 as asked?

Because I like to play in my 9-card (or 8-card with both hands having a singleton) fit when both hands are unbalanced? One of us must be misreading the auction. I am talking about
1C - 1H; 1S - 2N.
The egos of bridge players seem to be larger than that of the general population. Which is actually pretty strange, when one considers how humbling a game it is... Michael Rosenberg
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-13, 08:31

View Postcherdano, on 2019-June-13, 07:30, said:

Because I like to play in my 9-card (or 8-card with both hands having a singleton) fit when both hands are unbalanced? One of us must be misreading the auction. I am talking about
1C - 1H; 1S - 2N.


We are certainly reading the auction differently, I imagine it has to do with opener's rebid of 1S. To me, it shows 4-card spades in a 12-14 balanced hand or an 11-17 unbalanced hand, denying 4-card hearts. At worst, he could have 3-card clubs in a minimum 4=3=3=3. Holding a minimal 1=4=4=4 as the OP stipulates, it would go 1C - 1H; 1S - 1N. No way would I risk going to 3 in a potential 7-card fit.
If you play that a rebid of 1NT by opener does not deny 4-card spades, or something similar, I can see that it would be quite different.
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#17 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-June-13, 08:55

View Postpescetom, on 2019-June-13, 08:31, said:

We are certainly reading the auction differently, I imagine it has to do with opener's rebid of 1S. To me, it shows 4-card spades in a 12-14 balanced hand or an 11-17 unbalanced hand, denying 4-card hearts. At worst, he could have 3-card clubs in a minimum 4=3=3=3. Holding a minimal 1=4=4=4 as the OP stipulates, it would go 1C - 1H; 1S - 1N. No way would I risk going to 3 in a potential 7-card fit.
If you play that a rebid of 1NT by opener does not deny 4-card spades, or something similar, I can see that it would be quite different.

I understand not bothering to read my post, I write plenty of non-sense. What I don't understand is not reading but replying to it.
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#18 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-June-13, 08:55

View Postpescetom, on 2019-June-13, 08:31, said:

We are certainly reading the auction differently, I imagine it has to do with opener's rebid of 1S. To me, it shows 4-card spades in a 12-14 balanced hand or an 11-17 unbalanced hand, denying 4-card hearts. At worst, he could have 3-card clubs in a minimum 4=3=3=3. Holding a minimal 1=4=4=4 as the OP stipulates, it would go 1C - 1H; 1S - 1N. No way would I risk going to 3 in a potential 7-card fit.
If you play that a rebid of 1NT by opener does not deny 4-card spades, or something similar, I can see that it would be quite different.

I understand not bothering to read my post, I write plenty of non-sense. What I don't understand is not reading but replying to it.
The egos of bridge players seem to be larger than that of the general population. Which is actually pretty strange, when one considers how humbling a game it is... Michael Rosenberg
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#19 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-13, 09:06

View Postcherdano, on 2019-June-13, 08:55, said:

I understand not bothering to read my post, I write plenty of non-sense. What I don't understand is not reading but replying to it.


My apologies, I read your post too quickly and missed the point about 4333.

View Postcherdano, on 2019-June-12, 14:11, said:

If 1S could be 4333 I bid 1N and make a note to change our agreements.

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#20 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-June-21, 14:27

View PostArtK78, on 2019-June-12, 12:24, said:

It is threads like this one that lead me to believe that players have a basic lack of understanding of some conventions.

XYZ is a convention that applies after ANY three bids at the one level. Z could be 1, 1 or 1NT.

My basic understanding of XYZ is that it applies when Z is a suit. AFAIK that is the original definition. I do understand that more recently some players have conflated XYZ and the convention I have seen called "modified 2-way Stayman" (MTWS), but that doesn't change my understanding that the two are different. They are similar in that in both methods 2!C asks partner to bid 2!D, after which the 2!C bidder will either pass or make an invitational bid. They are (significantly, IMO) different in that in XYZ, 2!C is a marionette, which means that opener can bid something other than 2!D with a suitable hand, but in MTWS 2!C is a puppet; opener must bid 2!D.
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