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!D opening problem 2/1

#1 User is offline   briannz556 

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Posted 2019-June-06, 00:17

Hi

with West the dealer and all vulnerable.

This hand occurred the other afternoon and I need help bidding it to 6 if at all possible. I've consulted all my books on 2/1 and find the bidding starts 1 - 1 as far as I can tell. I had the East hand and started this way and stopped in 4.I just can't think of a way to detect the singleton in West's hand below the 5 level.

I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Brian
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#2 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2019-June-06, 00:21

View Postbriannz556, on 2019-June-06, 00:17, said:

Hi

with West the dealer and all vulnerable.

This hand occurred the other afternoon and I need help bidding it to 6 if at all possible. I've consulted all my books on 2/1 and find the bidding starts 1 - 1 as far as I can tell. I had the East hand and started this way and stopped in 4.I just can't think of a way to detect the singleton in West's hand below the 5 level.

I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Brian


Soloway Jump shifts. 1D-2H and a second jump shows a solid suit and partner should be able to bid slam.
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#3 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-June-06, 03:38

You would get an approximation to that information if for example you bid 1 1, 1 3, 3 3, 4.
This is difficult to answer without knowing your agreements for a 1m open, but responder bids 4th suit forcing followed by his own suit, which I believe would show a GF hand with a good and long suit. 4 I would take as a cue bid agreeing hearts. (It cannot be natural because then opener would have rebid 3NT.)

Playing first or second round controls, it could still be say Kx in clubs, but it might be a singleton. Very uncertain.

If you were playing a "balanced club / unbalanced diamond" style of minor openings, then you would know opener's shape almost exactly. 6 diamonds, 4 spades, heart support, so the club is singleton or void. Opener's hand limited by the failure to reverse to 2. That should be enough of a trigger to get you to 6.
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#4 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-June-06, 03:39

As previously mentioned, this is a relatively easy hand if you are playing strong jump shifts (which I prefer over minor suit openings when playing standard)

I'd expect an auction like the following

1 - 2
2 - 3
3 - 4
6

2!H is the SJS
3!H shows a self sufficeint heart suit
3!S is a cue bid
4!D is last train

Lacking a SJS, perhaps

1 - 1
1 - 2
2 - 2
3 - 3
3 - 4

All this is easier if you are cue bidding both 1st and 2nd round controls
Alderaan delenda est
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-June-06, 03:47

Although not playing 2/1 and playing SJS so this hand is simple for us

1-2 (either a single suited rock crusher or 5+/4+ GF)
2-3(single suited type, suit good enough to play slam opposite singleton)
3(cue)-3N (most expensive cue bid the way we play, so spade cue)
4-5(exclusion)
5(1)-6

I would have thought something like

1-1
1-2 (4SF GF)
2-3 (which should now be suit setting) ought to get you there
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#6 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-June-06, 04:03

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-June-06, 03:47, said:

I would have thought something like

1-1
1-2 (4SF GF)
2-3 (which should now be suit setting) ought to get you there

Yes, sorry, this is what I meant in post #3, where it seems I jumped in clubs without realising it !
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-06, 04:06

View Postbriannz556, on 2019-June-06, 00:17, said:

Hi

with West the dealer and all vulnerable.

This hand occurred the other afternoon and I need help bidding it to 6 if at all possible. I've consulted all my books on 2/1 and find the bidding starts 1 - 1 as far as I can tell. I had the East hand and started this way and stopped in 4.I just can't think of a way to detect the singleton in West's hand below the 5 level.

I'd appreciate any suggestions.

It's a no brainer if you play XYZ and Italian style control bids. A natural 1D 1H 1S and then 3H imposes trumps inviting control bidding. So it proceeds 3S 4D 5D 6H, where we stop, knowing that we have only second round clubs control (West would not have bid beyond 4H without control of clubs, denied by East).
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#8 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 04:30

View Postspotlight7, on 2019-June-06, 00:21, said:

Soloway Jump shifts. 1D-2H and a second jump shows a solid suit and partner should be able to bid slam.

Sir.we use this same (but NOT SOLOWAY) jump bid approach i.e.1D-2H-3D-4H.Our first 2H bid shows either a slam oriented hand with diamond fit
(expressed as 1D-2H-3D-3S/4C) OR a game going single suited BALANCED hand clarified by 1D-2H-3D-3NT. OR a game going single suited with a SOLID suit e.g.1D-2H-3D-3H .OFCOURSE ,I hurry to clarify that this is the basic approach and there are one or more bids like cue bids etc which anyone may develop to ones liking.THANKS
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#9 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 04:52

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-June-07, 04:30, said:

Sir.we use this same (but NOT SOLOWAY) jump bid approach i.e.1D-2H-3D-4H.Our first 2H bid shows either a slam oriented hand with diamond fit
(expressed as 1D-2H-3D-3S/4C) OR a game going single suited BALANCED hand clarified by 1D-2H-3D-3NT. OR a game going single suited with a SOLID suit e.g.1D-2H-3D-3H .OFCOURSE ,I hurry to clarify that this is the basic approach and there are one or more bids like cue bids etc which anyone may develop to ones liking.THANKS


Do you understand that the definition that you provided for your strong jump shift is the same as a Soloway jump shift?
Alderaan delenda est
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#10 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 06:12

When playing WJS, it's possible to play a jump-rebid by responder as game-forcing since a simple rebid is at least contructive.

This could lead to an auction that starts:

1D-1H
1S-3H
4C

and now you have the knowledge of the club control that you need.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#11 User is offline   maartenxq 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 06:23

This is exactly the reason why you cannot play wjs without any agreement what to do with strong hands. Here you can escape without 2 4th suit and bid 3 after 2 from partner. If partner must respond 2 you are stuck.

Maarten Baltussen
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#12 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 10:19

Not a hard slam to find.

If you play that 2H is NOT a strong jump shift (weak, Reverse Flannery, or some other treatment), then a very simple auction would be:

1D 1H
1S 2C(1)
2D 3H(2)
key card(3) response
6H

(1) fourth suit forcing (to game)
(2) strong hand; strong suit; slammish (otherwise you just bid 2H to show 6+ hearts)
(3) partner has announced a strong jump shift in H with a self-sufficient H suit. You have two-card support, first or second round control of all side suits, and a source of tricks. How can you not have a slam if you aren't off two quick ones?


A slightly more complex auction would be:
1D 1H
1S 2C
2D 3H
3S 3NT(1)
4C(2) key card
response 6H

(1) moving along; tell me more if you can
(2) first or second round control of clubs

Even if opener just raises 3H to 4H (very bad), responder can bid 5H to ask about clubs (some risk, since you could be off three clubs tricks, but minimal, and if opener has a club control, you have a slam).

Playing strong jump shifts (does anyone still do that?), it might go:

1D 2H
2S 3H(1)
key-card(2) response
6H

Again, when responder shows 17+ with a self-sufficient H suit, what is opener waiting for?

Cheers,
Mike
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#13 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 10:22

View Postgordontd, on 2019-June-07, 06:12, said:

When playing WJS, it's possible to play a jump-rebid by responder as game-forcing since a simple rebid is at least contructive.

This could lead to an auction that starts:

1D-1H
1S-3H
4C

and now you have the knowledge of the club control that you need.


A simple rebid is not constructive. It's 6-9. Most 2/1 systems treat a jump to 3H here as invitational. GF sequences go through 2C FSF. There are still a few 2/1 styles (Eastern Scientific) that use the jump as forcing and FSF as forcing one round, but they are now a very tiny minority.

Mike
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#14 User is offline   Caitlynne 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 10:27

If you don't play strong jump shifts - where the jump shift response shows either independently strong one suiter or two suiter with fit for opener's suit (clarified by responder's rebid)- you will have a problem on these types of hands.

1D - 2H
2S - 3H
3S - 4S
6H - Pass

There are some specialized partnership agreements that are advisable for adoption in these auctions, but even without them, it is usually renders slam bidding pretty straightforward. (I have found that such slams are almost impossible to reach intelligently if you play weak jump shifts or invitation/non-forcing jump shifts, methods that have become fashionable.)
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#15 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 14:04

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-June-06, 03:47, said:


I would have thought something like

1-1
1-2 (4SF GF)
2-3 (which should now be suit setting) ought to get you there


Yes, that's the sequence I would think gets things going.

miamijd brought up an important point about which bidding sequences are forcing and which are invitational. They are related to how you play 4th suit forcing(FSF). As pointed out, most people play FSF as a game force and a jump in the major is simply invitational.

Playing it that way, you have options over opener's 2 rebid. If East bids 2 , it shows at least 5+ and often 6 and a game force still applies. A jump to 4 is a signoff often with long broken . So, a jump to 3 really sends a couple messages. It says "I have really good and want to play in " and "I have a good hand with at least some mild slam interest".

The East hand fits the 3 bid even though only having 13 HCP. It is a 4 loser hand because of the long solid and Kx. A control and 2 1/2 to 3 cover cards might make a slam a reasonable place to be.

Now let's swap chairs and look at it from West's perspective. How does this hand look with respect to slam opposite a good hand with strong and at least mild slam interest? Opposite something like just AKQxxx, or, even KQJxxx with extras, there's potential to take a lot of tricks. And, the West hand has controls in all the side suits. So West should cooperate at least in slam exploration at least through 4 .

So, I think West's next bid is a 3 control bid.

If you understand that East with any possible interest in NT could rebid 2 rather than 3 , then you might agree to use 3 NT over 3 as a waiting bid/serious 3 NT. Then West could bid 4 showing the control.

If you don't have that agreement, then I think East has to bid 4 showing a control. West will know it's shortness but holding AK means East may be able to make a pitch a loser or two. By bidding 4 , East denies a control. So West has a choice of actions over 4 . An aggressive West might just bid 6 . A more conservative West might bid 4 . But over 4 , East can make one more push by bidding 4 and West should continue to 6 .
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#16 User is offline   Left2Right 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 14:12

I write only because you said you couldn't find it in a book. Try Advanced Bridge Bidding for the 21st Century. Hardy, Max. ISBN10: 1-58776-125-4. 2002. Vivisphere Publishing. Poughkeepsie, NY.

The XYZ suggestion from Cyberyeti is found on page 31, "All other jumps = strong suits and suggest slam possibilities." Example hand 27(a).

After that, standard slam cues will induce partner to understand that the club control is the only missing ingredient.
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#17 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 14:56

View PostLeft2Right, on 2019-June-07, 14:12, said:

I write only because you said you couldn't find it in a book. Try Advanced Bridge Bidding for the 21st Century. Hardy, Max. ISBN10: 1-58776-125-4. 2002. Vivisphere Publishing. Poughkeepsie, NY.

The XYZ suggestion from Cyberyeti is found on page 31, "All other jumps = strong suits and suggest slam possibilities." Example hand 27(a).

After that, standard slam cues will induce partner to understand that the club control is the only missing ingredient.

The XYZ suggestion was mine, cyberyeti suggested a more traditional 4sf approach.
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#18 User is offline   briannz556 

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Posted 2019-June-07, 17:47

Hi Folks
I appreciate your feedback and it made me go back to our understandings. We do play XYZ and that slipped my mind at the time. However, we need to amplify our understandings as a Jump rebid doesn't show a solid suit which would have simplified the hand development. I will take on board all the comments and act accordingly. Thanks for taking the time to help me.

Cheers

Brian
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#19 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-June-08, 10:44

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-June-07, 04:52, said:

Do you understand that the definition that you provided for your strong jump shift is the same as a Soloway jump shift?

Sir,well it just may sound like one.I have not yet read SOLOWAY'S book.I have based it on ideas borrowed from our own Terrence Reese and some more ideas of my own.However thanks for the alert.
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#20 User is offline   dB451 

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Posted 2019-June-08, 21:26

The only tools you need to bid this slam are Fourth Suit Forcing to Game and Italian Cue-bids, which show first- or second-round control, i.e., an Ace, King, singleton, or void. So, the bidding goes, as others have said above: 1D - 1H - 1S - 2C (GF) - 2D - 2H, then either West supports East's twice-bid Hearts (with their honor-doubleton), or West bids 2N and East bids their Hearts a third time. If the former (West supports with 3H), East shows their Spade King with 3S, then West shows their stiff Club with 4C, after which East realizes he can safely bid Keycard. If the latter (West persists with 2N, and East rebids 3H, West should remember that there's a technical term for a suit that partner bids three times - it's called "trump". So, there, after East's thrice-rebid Hearts, West can show their Italian cue of Clubs, and, again, East can now safely bid Keycard (even regular Blackwood would work). That's my $0.02.
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