[Cyberyeti]

I'm going to force you to play our system here, which is 2♣ with a 2♦ negative and Kokish.

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There was a difference of opinion here as to whether 3♥ was better than 4 or what you do with a 5233/4234 bad hand that wants to hear more before deciding where to play.

What do you think should be bid over 3♦ ? and what do you think 3♥ should mean ?

[etha]

I'll bid 3♥.

4♥ I think is to play with a bad hand and 3+ trumps.

[apollo1201]

I think 3H is an ambiguous bid but necessary here:
- doubleton H w/o S stop (btw, 3S is S stop but no C stop, or is it a cue bid asking a S stop?), or with a diamond fit but not really wanting to go above 3NT (eg xxx Qx Jxxx Kxxx)
- positive fit where you catch up later (eg 4C over 3NT from partner who should be able’ to figure out it is a control with a fit, and not that you just discovered a real suit in your hand at that stage of the bidding)

4H would indeed be a weak hand with a fit, wanting to play 4H but not more facing a « min » GF partner. You wanna bid game, you have H and D, here is your game. Jxxx xxx xx Qxxx

[Tramticket]

3H - agrees hearts. I would almost never bid 4H (maybe four-card hearts and a Yarborough).

[FelicityR]

I actually don't quite like the 2♦ negative here. So you haven't got an A and K as your 7 points to make a positive call, but using Kokish I think responder needs to pre-plan ahead. If 2♣ is unconditionally forcing to game, then with the bidding sequence given 3♥ would show more than 4♥ - I agree with Tramticket.

However, the problem is that responder doesn't know opener has a Kokish style hand when he bids 2♦

As my last post on this forum demonstrated, it is very important having a comprehensive set of responses to a 2♣ opener. (And my own responses proved that I still have a lot to learn here.) And it's also important to cover responses if the opponents interfere.

The opener has chosen to bid 3♦ here clarifying his/her hand, but what would XX mean here - to play, tolerance or shortness in the suit; or alternatively, pass which would be forcing, showing what sort of hand? (And after a forcing pass by opener, what would XX, or any other bid mean by responder, too?)

If East has enough to double 2♠ (blindly) without fear of opener redoubling and ending up with 10 or 11 tricks, then all opener's points are going to be in the other three suits surely. Slam is not going to be far off. But better to proceed slowly. So it's 3♥ from me. Opener can make encouraging noises after that.

[pescetom]

4♥ should be to play with a bad or awful hand and fit.
3♥ should be anything better with fit and is what I bid here.

A more interesting question is what redouble or pass by opener would have meant.

[nige1]

Cyberyeti writes 'I'm going to force you to play our system here, which is 2♣ with a 2♦ negative and Kokish. There was a difference of opinion here as to whether 3♥ was better than 4 or what you do with a 5233/4234 bad hand that wants to hear more before deciding where to play. What do you think should be bid over 3♦ ? and what do you think 3♥ should mean ?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IMO -- 3♥ = G/F Natural and descriptive.
Partner seems to have little wasted in ♠s, so worth later slam-tries.
You would also have to bid 3♥ with some bad hands
A jump raise to 4♥ would show ♥ support but deny an ace/king/singleton/void.

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[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2019-June-09, 07:07, said:

4♥ should be to play with a bad or awful hand and fit.
3♥ should be anything better with fit and is what I bid here.

A more interesting question is what redouble or pass by opener would have meant.

So what do you do with a bad hand and doubleton heart ? Partner could easily have a 1543/2542(we tend not to treat these as balanced) 24 count here or a 0643/0652 monster.

P/XX would be suggestion/strong suggestion to play so unlikely given what you hold by your blanket agreements on doubles of artificial bids with no particular thought being given to this exact auction.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-June-09, 12:56, said:

So what do you do with a bad hand and doubleton heart ? Partner could easily have a 1543/2542(we tend not to treat these as balanced) 24 count here or a 0643/0652 monster.

P/XX would be suggestion/strong suggestion to play so unlikely given what you hold by your blanket agreements on doubles of artificial bids with no particular thought being given to this exact auction.

With misfit in hearts I raise diamonds if that looks useful, otherwise show my black suit or just bid 4H.

Not sure I understand your reply about bids after double of Kokish 2S, by "to play" do you mean pass out for penalty?

I'm ashamed to say we haven't discussed it, but I would take pass as meaning "I would have rebid hearts, let's gain a level" and redouble as similar but with at least tolerance for a penalty pass.

[rmnka447]

I'm bidding 3 ♥ even though as others point out it's ambiguous. I agree 4 ♥ is a sign off with a fit and not much else.

It appears you've hit on one of the problems with Kokish. When you actually have ♥ and not enough to insist on a ♥ game with 3 ♥ over 2 ♦, it gets hard to distinguish between a preference and a fit with values. And, you're doing so at the 3 level, too.

In this particular case, you might want to consider some ways to take advantage of the opponent's double of the 2 ♠ relay. You might want to take advantage by designating RDBL shows the big NT hand and pass shows a ♥ based hand. That would leave space for responder to further clarify their hand. For example, 3 ♣ over pass could be a 2nd negative (cheapest suit, cheapest minor), 2 NT undefined positive 5+, 3 ♥ a good raise, and other bids natural.

But without the double, you still face the same problem deciding what 3 ♥ and 4 ♥ mean.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2019-June-09, 13:54, said:

With misfit in hearts I raise diamonds if that looks useful, otherwise show my black suit or just bid 4H. Partner with a monster (balanced or not) is unlikely to open Kokish then suit.

Not sure I understand your reply about bids after double of Kokish 2S, by "to play" do you mean pass out for penalty?

I'm ashamed to say we haven't discussed it, but I would take pass as meaning "I would have rebid hearts, let's gain a level" and redouble as similar but with at least tolerance for a penalty pass.

We haven't discussed this exact sequence, but pass over 2♠x suggests possibly playing 2♠x, XX is a stronger suggestion to play 2♠XX so not doing that (although I think 2♠x or XX makes, maybe with an overtrick).

We would bid 2♥ then 3♦ with almost any hand with 5+♥/4+♦ that was big enough we felt we needed to open 2♣.