BBO Discussion Forums: When not to takeout double inSAYC - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

When not to takeout double inSAYC

#1 User is offline   johnblu 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 2019-January-23

Posted 2019-May-29, 07:54

My partner and I play SAYC. If my RHO is dealer and bids 1C, and I have AJxx, Qx, Q10x, KJxx, what is my best bid?
I think I should compete with a double, despite having only 2 hearts and the 3 clubs, because I have no better bid. My partner insists that I cannot double, per SAYC, because of the heart shortness and the club length. He says I should pass and await developments.
What is the consensus position on this type of hand? Thanks.
0

#2 User is offline   TylerE 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,550
  • Joined: 2006-January-30

Posted 2019-May-29, 08:13

Paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaass.

There are hands to make offshape doubles with, this very middling 13 count is 100% NOT one of them.

I would much rather overcall 1 than X if you told me I "had" to do something, as it at least gets me the right lead and keeps partner from going nuts with 5 or 6 hearts.
1

#3 User is offline   akwoo 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 945
  • Joined: 2010-November-21

Posted 2019-May-29, 11:53

Pass. There's no hurry to show your hand; you'll have another chance.
0

#4 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,366
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2019-May-29, 11:56

Pass!!

Competitive bidding has progressed from back when what you hold would have been a takeout double to the more modern idea of shaped takeout doubles that promise 3+ cards in all unbid suits. As a result, there are times when you have enough strength for a take out double, but not the right shape. This hand is one of those hands.

It's fair to ask how your don't miss something when you hold one of these hands. The answer is the concept called balancing. If you pass and your LHO passes, you partner is in the pass out seat. Your partner can infer that you have values because your LHO was unable to respond showing presumably 5 or less points. So your partner with any values at all can make a call or bid understanding that your side has about the "balance" of the points on the hand. A 1 level suit bid in this position can be made on as little as 5-6 points with length in the suit. A double is the strongest call which usually shows a near opener, but it can be shaded a little if the reopening bidder has good shape (support for the unbid suits).

If your LHO opponent responds to the opening bid, then your side usually passes and may back into the auction later if the opponents find a fit and stop at a low level. Generally when they have a fit, your side also has a fit and may be able to compete further.

There are lots of articles and books available about competing in the auction that will go over this in detail. I am just trying to give a very broad overview here first to understand how competing has evolved.
1

#5 User is offline   MatthiasK 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 14
  • Joined: 2010-October-19

Posted 2019-May-29, 11:57

This is just a slightly above average hand with a lot of defensive value.
There is absolutely no reason to bid anything right now. And this does not depend on the system you're playing,
it's standard and common sense.

For a takeout double you like to have shortness in opp's suite, support for both majors is required,
except if you have a very good hand.
0

#6 User is offline   spotlight7 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 340
  • Joined: 2009-March-21

Posted 2019-May-29, 13:26

View Postjohnblu, on 2019-May-29, 07:54, said:

My partner and I play SAYC. If my RHO is dealer and bids 1C, and I have AJxx, Qx, Q10x, KJxx, what is my best bid?
I think I should compete with a double, despite having only 2 hearts and the 3 clubs, because I have no better bid. My partner insists that I cannot double, per SAYC, because of the heart shortness and the club length. He says I should pass and await developments.
What is the consensus position on this type of hand? Thanks.



The problem often gets worse if you double here. If you leave partner in some number of hearts, it will often be a 4-2 fit.


A rebid of 1NT after you double shows @18-20(or 19-21 if your 1N overcall shows 16-18)


Your partner is correct, pass and await developments.
0

#7 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,004
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2019-May-29, 14:33

Ranking the possible bids:

1) Pass
2) Pass
3) Pass
4) Pass
5) Pass

You may not get to the right contract if you pass, but it should not be a disaster, and you'll have plenty of company. If you double and partner bids a lot of hearts expecting heart support, you rate to have a bad or terrible board.
1

#8 User is online   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,940
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2019-May-29, 16:32

Double is an abomination before the lord

If you absolutely can't pass, then bid 1!S.

Note, I happily overcall on four card suits and hate 1!S but consider it better than double.
Hell, I rather bid 1NT than double
Alderaan delenda est
0

#9 User is offline   kereru67 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 28
  • Joined: 2012-February-26

Posted 2019-May-29, 19:39

Some hands are just unsuitable for any immediate action and it is important not to mislead your partner. If you double 1 you are guaranteeing at least one and preferably both 4 card majors and at most 2 in your hand, unless you have the rare "strong" type with 16+ points and a 6 card suit that doesn't need partner's support.

The other side of the coin is to appreciate that if your partner passes in the overcall position they may have as many as 15 points.

Generally you should not let the opponents play a 1 or 2 level contract without a fight, unless you suspect they have underbid and have a game contract (usually this is only true of weak opponents) or that both sets of hands are misfits.

This is why in the balancing position you should usually take some action. One suggestion is to "borrow a king" from your partner, i.e. bid as you would if you had a king better than your actual hand, for example if you would normally make an overcall of 1NT with 15-17, you can now make it with 12-14; if you would normally double with 13+ you can now double with 10+ (provided you can support the unbid suits of course). In responding to your bid, your partner in turn should mentally subtract a king.

With the given hand in balancing position I would bid 1NT.
1

#10 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,961
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2019-May-29, 22:51

When partner jumps to 4 and there is no play, then you will remember why double is wrong.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#11 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,961
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2019-May-29, 22:57

Hrothgar is correct 1 is a reasonable alternative though I doubt anyone playing SAYC would have the imagination to do it.
This method is suggested in Mike Lawrence's' book Overcalls. one key is values in opponents suit, here clubs
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#12 User is offline   kereru67 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 28
  • Joined: 2012-February-26

Posted 2019-May-29, 23:18

1 isn't terrible but the suit is too weak to "lie" about having a 5 card suit. Your partner might raise with 3 small, at which point your J becomes useless. Indicators for an overcall on a 4 card suit:

(1) you're only at 1 level
(2) you have opening strength, with all your points "working"
(3) the suit is strong
(4) you are not vulnerable
(5) it interferes with opponents bidding - this works best with the suit of course.
(6) the hand is unsuitable for a takeout double

So for this hand conditions 1, 5 and 6 are clearly met, but 2 not much - the points are scattered and Q's and J's might not be working, especially the poorly supported Q. 3 is not met - the suit is too weak, something like AJTx would be the minimum. Condition 4 was not specified in the question but the vulnerability situation is actually one of the most important factors. At favorable I might be tempted by 1, but I'd have to wear it if we got in trouble.
0

#13 User is offline   msjennifer 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,366
  • Joined: 2013-August-03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Variable private
  • Interests:Cricket,Photography,Paediatrics and Community Medicine.

Posted 2019-May-29, 23:52

View Postjohnblu, on 2019-May-29, 07:54, said:

My partner and I play SAYC. If my RHO is dealer and bids 1C, and I have AJxx, Qx, Q10x, KJxx, what is my best bid?
I think I should compete with a double, despite having only 2 hearts and the 3 clubs, because I have no better bid. My partner insists that I cannot double, per SAYC, because of the heart shortness and the club length. He says I should pass and await developments.
What is the consensus position on this type of hand? Thanks.

Although there are the so called 14 HCP the hand has following so to say "defects" 1)No decent, even a lead directing, suit to overcall. 2)ONLY two winners. 3)Eight losers even if a suit fit is found. 4)Neither the length nor the strength to make a TOD. A quiet PASS stands out.remembering that partner is alive if LHO too PASSES. There shall be an opportunity to take appropriate action or pass the next round. Perhaps the only criterion it satisfies is the not very logical Rule of 20.
0

#14 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,923
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2019-May-30, 01:01

Pass, as everyone else is recommending.

I recommend getting in the habit of looking at the hand shape as soon as you pick up the cards. This is a balanced, no-trump shape in the weak no-trump range. Weak NT hands rarely make good doubles or over-calls so you should be prepared to pass in tempo with this hand type. It is important to pass in your normal tempo so that partner will have no ethical problems protecting with a marginal hand.
0

#15 User is offline   ray_p 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 18
  • Joined: 2019-May-13

Posted 2019-May-30, 01:20

Remember PASS is a bid too!

The issue here is that you don't have a suitable rebid, especially over parters most likely replies of 1H or 2H so don't bid!

A Pass will tell partner you don't have an over-calling hand which you don't (although you do have a good defensive hand in this case),

Wait for a suitable rebid after your Pass, - which may be supporting partners suit, or converting to NT, or PASS-ing and defending if you and partner dont have a contract (or maybe even a penalty double at a higher level)
0

#16 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,480
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2019-May-30, 03:40

View Postray_p, on 2019-May-30, 01:20, said:

Remember PASS is a bid too!

Actually it isn't and nor is double. :)
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#17 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,366
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2019-May-30, 08:09

View Postgordontd, on 2019-May-30, 03:40, said:

Actually it isn't and nor is double. :)


Technically, pass, double, and redouble are calls. A bid is a number and a strain -- 1 , 2 NT, etc.
0

#18 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,993
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2019-May-30, 08:52

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-May-30, 08:09, said:

Technically, pass, double, and redouble are calls. A bid is a number and a strain -- 1 , 2 NT, etc.


Bids are calls too.
0

#19 User is offline   ray_p 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 18
  • Joined: 2019-May-13

Posted 2019-May-30, 18:03

Your semantic debate lets the real point fly over your heads!

It takes 2 (sometimes 3) bids to fully describe your hand to partner, and Pass followed by 1S re-bid is just as informative as 1S followed by Pass, or 1S followed by 2D although meanings are obviously different.

You need Pass to bid a whole range of un-openable hands, and there are as many Pass.. bidding sequences as 1.. bidding sequences. So, if you aren't using the whole range then your communication with partner is limited.
0

#20 User is offline   IGoHomeNow 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 25
  • Joined: 2017-February-26

Posted 2019-May-30, 19:14

AJxx, Qx, Q10x, KJxx,

IDouble is awful. Even 1NT is better. At least it will be the right contract fairly often.

Even switching the red suits is not enough. Partner, you know that idiot across the table, will bid diamonds and expect three of them.
With only 2 hearts, double is now just gross.

As for 1S? No, no no. Even with IDEAL hands, such overcalls are a crapshoot. You have no offense and a pretty fair amount of defense.
Truth be told, you WANT to defend, but will be happy to pay NT if partner can bid. I think most folks who are so desperate to bid
with these kinds of hands are poor defenders. AJTx xx AJx Axxx is MUCH closer to a 1S bid. Tons of offense, not much defense outside
of the Aces and finding a spade fit will be difficult on some auctions. But realize that bidding 1S may lead to a disaster that can never
be fixed. Partner will ALWAYS get the law of total tricks wrong. This can be especially bad if your style includes aggressive pre-emption.
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users