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5431 as "balanced" to allow 2C showing 6?

#1 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2019-May-24, 14:22

I'm thinking about including 5431 patterns with 5 clubs and 4M into our 1C opener, in order to have the 2C opening promise a six card suit.

Currently our 1C opening include:

a) 12-14 NT, usually with (42)25 too.
b) Most strong hands. (16)17+ if unbalanced, 18+ if balanced. Very strong if unbalanced with primary diamonds.
c) 12+ three-suited with short diamonds (like a precision 2D opening).

So the hand type we "have" to open 2C, with a five card suit, is when having (41)35.

I'm considering if we perhaps should "contamine" our 1C opening even more, with the short major hands, in order for 2C to show a six card suit. One of the great benefits of the 1C opening though is that responder can assume opener is balanced, and if proved wrong opener will be strong (well short diamonds is possible too, so some caution may be needed). This "guarantee" is not true anymore if opener could be short in any of 1D, 1H, and 1S.

I'm thinking that you who play nebulous diamond or a "short club" may have similar problems. What is your experience when opening for instance 1D in IMPrecision, LHO overcalls and partner bids your singleton? I guess pass and hope for the best is the correct approach, but seems it could lead to some silly 5-1 contracts.

So competitive auctions seems like the biggest negative. Another negative is in constructive auctions, where opener will have to treat the (41)35 patterns as balanced, and might not be able to show his club suit unless responder has a GF. For instance:

1C-1M;
1S/1NT = Could be singleton in major if having (41)35. Checkback should be able to sort it out on game going hands.
2C = Needed as strong (or at least forcing).
2M = Could be three card raise.

1C-1D (negative);
1M-1NT;
Pass = Could have unbalanced hand with 5C, bidding further would be strong.
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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-May-24, 15:02

I think you'd be better off switching 1 meaning C and your 2C opener... make 2C the 3 suiter (which will be harder to defend against as unlike Precision 2D opener it's passable. Then your 1c is either strong, min balanced, or primary clubs. Maybe allow (13)=4=5 hands in 1c as well.
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#3 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2019-May-24, 16:34

Forgot what your 1D opening is. Can you lump those hands there? I'd rather have (41)35 in with the 4+ diamonds at the 1-level than with 6C patterns at the 2-level.
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#4 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-May-24, 16:39

I'm currently playing a system that promises 0 diamonds with a 1d opener. We prefer that ambiguity to opening a 5 card club suit with 2c.
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#5 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2019-May-24, 16:53

View PostTylerE, on 2019-May-24, 15:02, said:

I think you'd be better off switching 1 meaning C and your 2C opener... make 2C the 3 suiter (which will be harder to defend against as unlike Precision 2D opener it's passable. Then your 1c is either strong, min balanced, or primary clubs. Maybe allow (13)=4=5 hands in 1c as well.


You mean 2C should be three-suited with short diamonds, or just "three-suited" with clubs and any singleton? Not quite sure I understand. Opening 1C with 6+C would probably lead to pretty wide-ranging 2C rebids.

View Poststraube, on 2019-May-24, 16:34, said:

Forgot what your 1D opening is. Can you lump those hands there? I'd rather have (41)35 in with the 4+ diamonds at the 1-level than with 6C patterns at the 2-level.


Our 1D opening is natural and unbalanced. 4+ diamonds 11-21 hcp (a lower max if 6+D), may be 5C and 4D if 11-15(16). I've thought about opening 1D on a three-card suit with these patterns, but we'd have to change quite a lot in our response structure. Right now we play 1D-1NT as a relay, which means we don't have a negative NT available. Because of this we play 1D-2C as non-forcing, and 1D-2D is frequently a three card raise.

View PostHardVector, on 2019-May-24, 16:39, said:

I'm currently playing a system that promises 0 diamonds with a 1d opener. We prefer that ambiguity to opening a 5 card club suit with 2c.


Yeah, I've done that too in a few variant but I haven't enough experience to have a strong opinion about it. We played 1D-1M; 2m as 5+ minor and 4 cards in the other major, which works nicely. It wouldn't work after 1C-1M in our system though, since 2C probably needs to be strong.
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#6 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2019-May-24, 19:54

Let’s say 1D included (41)35. Couldn’t you cater to that hand somehow? For example, 1D-3C could be a diamond raise with club tolerance. Or 1D-2D, 3C could be that (41)35. The thing about both auctions is that the opponents have at least a nine-card major suit fit, so getting to the 3-level has some law protection. You could also just not even worry about a 3-3 fit because the opponents are likely to balance into their major fit.
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#7 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-May-24, 21:25

View PostKungsgeten, on 2019-May-24, 16:53, said:

You mean 2C should be three-suited with short diamonds, or just "three-suited" with clubs and any singleton? Not quite sure I understand. Opening 1C with 6+C would probably lead to pretty wide-ranging 2C rebids.


Always short diamonds. 2C rebid will ALWAYS be the minimum long club hand...a 17+ long club hand should do something different.
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#8 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2019-May-25, 01:36

A few comments from our experience with IMPrecision.

1. We tend to double when having two-plus places to play. So 1-(2)-X with 4531, 5422, etc (assuming a weak hand). Double and then correct is fairly weak with two places to play, since stronger hands with a suit start with a transfer and stronger balanced/three-suited hands normally cue at second turn. This means the hand that transfers and passes normally has length in the opposing suit (at least three cards) or a six card suit.
2. We don't play transfers (or negative free bids or anything like that) at the three-level.
3. Opener will often make balancing doubles with shortness in the opposing suit (even with doubleton) so we don't always feel compelled to bid with length in the opposing suit.
4. In principle opener can reject a transfer, and this shows a three-suiter short in the suit transferred to (cheapest non-accept) or a minor two suiter (3). We only really do this with extras though (like 13+ to 15 for us).
5. Opener's three suiters aren't very common relative to opener's balanced hands, and we also tend to need a 3-3 or 4-3 break in overcaller's suit, so we rarely have too much trouble here. The bad case is typically something like 3532 opposite 3145 after 1-(1)-2 xfer, and to be honest there aren't a lot of great places to play here. Standard bidding could easily go 1m-(1)-X-(Pass)-1NT-(Pass)-2? anyway.

I suspect that some of these things may be different in your system since you need to have some rebids showing the strong option.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#9 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2019-May-25, 04:45

View PostKungsgeten, on 2019-May-24, 14:22, said:

Another negative is in constructive auctions, where opener will have to treat the (41)35 patterns as balanced, and might not be able to show his club suit unless responder has a GF. For instance:

1C-1M;
1S/1NT = Could be singleton in major if having (41)35. Checkback should be able to sort it out on game going hands.
2C = Needed as strong (or at least forcing).
2M = Could be three card raise.

How about something like

1 = 12-14 BAL / 11-16, "4451 minus 1 card" / "11-16, 6+ D" / "strong"
1 = "4+ C, unBAL"
2 (or 2?) = 11-16, (41)53

1-1M; ?:

1 = NAT
1N = "12-14 BAL, 2-3 M"
2 = "strong"
2 = "11-16, 2-M6+D"
(...)

or

1 = 12-14 BAL / 11-16, "4451 minus 1 card" / "strong"
1 = "4+ C, unBAL"
2 = "11-16, either 6+ D or (41)53"

2-?:

2 = to play opposite a 1-suiter
...P = 1-suiter
...2 = 1453 or 4+H6+D
...2 = 4153 or 4+S6+D
...(...)
(...)

?
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#10 User is offline   etha 

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Posted 2019-May-25, 05:28

tarzan precision does indeed have the (41)35 hands in 1, so that their 2 bid has 6 . Their 1 is otherwise 4+.
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#11 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2019-May-25, 06:29

I suggest generating some hands.

I ran 50 hands myself and found only 2 instances of a possible 3-3 fit. So multiply the frequency of (41)35 by 4% for starters.

Both hands that raised with 3-cd support happened to be (32)35 11 cts so they 1) possibly had some other action (like 2C or 2N) and 2) would have been quite happy if opener had rebid 3C with his (41)35.

I don't see much downside with 1D-2D, 3C auctions. You have plenty of room to handle other 1D-2D auctions. Probably your worst case is when responder has something like 3343 and you wind up in a 5-3 fit at the 3-level when the opponents have a 9-cd fit in a major.
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#12 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2019-May-25, 11:01

View Postawm, on 2019-May-25, 01:36, said:

A few comments from our experience with IMPrecision.

1. We tend to double when having two-plus places to play. So 1-(2)-X with 4531, 5422, etc (assuming a weak hand). Double and then correct is fairly weak with two places to play, since stronger hands with a suit start with a transfer and stronger balanced/three-suited hands normally cue at second turn. This means the hand that transfers and passes normally has length in the opposing suit (at least three cards) or a six card suit.
2. We don't play transfers (or negative free bids or anything like that) at the three-level.

This is tangential to the discussion, but this looks like an interesting treatment. Is this used over 1 - (2) only, or in other places (say over 1M - (2m))?
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