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Best Bid at Rubber, MPs or IMPs

#1 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-May-21, 09:17

Rubber bridge. Game +40 to North/South.

This distributional hand was dealt to my partner (East). South opened 2C - he is known to be an overbidder by nature - and North bid 2D (waiting). What do you feel is the right bid on this hand. (And how would you bid it playing IMPs or MPs?) And as always, thank you for your replies.


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#2 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-May-21, 10:03

View PostFelicityR, on 2019-May-21, 09:17, said:

Rubber bridge. Game +40 to North/South.

This distributional hand was dealt to my partner (East). South opened 2C - he is known to be an overbidder by nature - and North bid 2D (waiting). What do you feel is the right bid on this hand. (And how would you bid it playing IMPs or MPs?) And as always, thank you for your replies.




I'd bid an immediate 4NT
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2019-May-21, 10:36

5 given the suit length disparity.
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#4 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-May-21, 11:33

What is our objective? It seems to me that opponents have the values for game and likely for a slam. So I would consider it a probable win if we can persuade them to play in game only. I am only bidding once - bidding twice might give more info to opps. It is difficult to guess the best tactics and it might depend on personal taste. It might be that 4C would be enough to interfere, without showing really extreme distribution (which would help opps).
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#5 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-May-21, 11:47

FelictyR writes 'Rubber bridge. Game +40 to North/South. This distributional hand was dealt to my partner (East). South opened 2C - he is known to be an overbidder by nature - and North bid 2D (waiting). What do you feel is the right bid on this hand. (And how would you bid it playing IMPs or MPs?) And as always, thank you for your replies.'
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Felicity's diagram fixed to make East the dealer although it's hand to understand the initial pass.
Now, at Rubber, MPs, or IMPS,
-- Stephen Tu's 5 seems reasonable, .
-- An alternative might be 4, intending to bid 4N over opponent's 4M.
-- Or 3N, intending to bid 5 over opponent's 4M.

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#6 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-May-21, 11:58

At rubber, game is 2h, 2s, or 2n. I'd push it to the 5 level to make them guess on whether to go for the slam bonus. The principal is applicable to the other forms of scoring as well. I'm kind of torn between 4n and 5c, though. The club suit is 2 cards better than diamonds, but I've played in a 7-0 before when a 5-4 fit existed.
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-May-21, 12:33

It's been decades since I last played rubber bridge, and what I remember most is that the level of expertise was wildly variable, and that playing one's opps (and partner, since one rarely plays set partnerships) was a big part of the game. Be that as it may, freaks are freaks, and there are few reliable 'rules'.

One other thing I remember is that sometimes it is best to let them get a rubber rather than go for any kind of number and still have them poised to win the rubber anyway. Here, they are, if I read the post correctly, with a 40 leg and they have already scored a game and we have not. (Sounds like classic rubber: when I last played Chicago was the prevailing style, where the vulnerability went with the 'board' designation: none, then N-S, then E-W and finally both, in 4 board sets.

Still a freak is a freak and indeed this freak could end up being a plus for us, so I will be competing, a lot.

My plan would be the same at all forms of scoring.

I bid 3C now, and then bid the necessary minimum level of notrump on my next call, unless raised by partner. If he doubles LHO (say I bid 3C and LHO bids 3M and partner doubles) I'd need to know if I trust partner. If I do, I pass. If I don't, I rebid clubs (not notrump, which he'll take as natural too often...I said I bid if I didn't trust him). Fortunately, at imps or mps, I don't play these days with people I don't trust :rolleyes:

Unless the auction tells me otherwise, I don't intend to let them play below the 7-level....and I hope that any grand by them will be lost on the rocks of the extreme shape.

I don't bid 5C immediately, and I don't suggest equivalent minors. Clubs then notrump is the conventional (as in: usual) way of showing a 2-card length discrepancy. This 'could' be an exception due to our club texture, but why can't partner hold xxxx Axxx Qxxx x or the like. I mean, in my fantasy world he has xxxx xxxx Axxxx void and they lead a black suit :rolleyes:
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#8 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-May-21, 13:31

5c. My intent is to make slam exploration as difficult as possible for the opps at all forms of scoring. I have no intention of backing in later since I will have just as little clue as I do now how high they belong. I can sympathize with the idea of not going for a number when the rubber seems doomed anyway but I feel the odds of the opps having a slam are so high that making it tough for them to bid slam properly looks well worth any penalty we suffer in 5c. The 57 distribution keeps me from having p consider 5d as a final contract for our side because it is probably just too darn difficult for p to choose the right minor.
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#9 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2019-May-21, 14:10

I don't think I can fully remember how to score rubber as I only play duplicate. But at duplicate I'll put the 5 card on the table here.
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#10 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-May-22, 01:10

Sirs/miss/madam,To admit frankly I have only heard of Rubber Bridge leave alone play it.As per my knowledge the NS require to make only a part score to make game and win the Rubber(WIDOW rubber?).I shall tell you our strategies for this vulnerability and with the given bidding .We bid 4 Heart.and then if doubled bid 4NT to show a minor suited hand with longer clubs.Reverse the minor suits and we bid 4 Spade and as before 4NT to show minor suited hand with longer diamonds.These bids may sound ridiculous and I certainly do not advise others to use these .With majors we bid 3NT (transfer to 4C) and then 4D to show longer spades and 4H to show longer Hearts.This scheme allows us to use 3C/D/H/S bids as natural overcalls.




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#11 User is offline   maartenxq 

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Posted 2019-May-22, 03:19

If south overbid his hand he has no doubt some major one or two suiter. His side needs also only 60 for game and rubber.
If south has a long suit I would like to compete up to 5 . I can achieve that by bidding 2 NT now and some number of later.
If south is 2 suited p may have some unpleasant surprises for him. I will therefore respect my partners dbl on 4 level and should maybe pass something like
2 2 2 nt
3Already enough for game) 4
4

but that is difficult.

In mps and imps I would bid on the same lines. I will not bid an immediate 4 NT because this may be totally wrong and more important I want to emphasize that my are way better than my !d.

Maarten Baltussen
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#12 User is offline   ray_p 

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Posted 2019-May-22, 06:07

The time to bid was that first round pass by E, which should have been a 3C pre-empt, rather than waiting for chance to bid unusual NT - especially at -40 below the line and favourable vulnerability.

Anything looks a bit late now opponents have been unleashed.

Consider 2 possibilities: (a) that the 2C bid was only to force partner into bid upto the 2M/3m level for game or
(b) It is a truly strong hand, but probably not slam going unless they find their good fit.

You have 0-1 defensive tricks, but partner may have 0-11 points (a) or 0-8 points (b), which have no offensive value for you, but with some defensive value against their game.

Make opponents earn their game, in full. Don't just rollover and give in. Compete to take out bidding space and a belated 4C is probably better than pass as it is makes them play in 4. Although 5C is too risky - your potentially 5-loser hand might get held to just 5 tricks.
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#13 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-May-22, 07:54

View Postmaartenxq, on 2019-May-22, 03:19, said:

If south overbid his hand he has no doubt some major one or two suiter. His side needs also only 60 for game and rubber.
If south has a long suit I would like to compete up to 5 . I can achieve that by bidding 2 NT now and some number of later.
If south is 2 suited p may have some unpleasant surprises for him. I will therefore respect my partners dbl on 4 level and should maybe pass something like
2 2 2 nt
3Already enough for game) 4
4

but that is difficult.

In mps and imps I would bid on the same lines. I will not bid an immediate 4 NT because this may be totally wrong and more important I want to emphasize that my are way better than my !d.

Maarten Baltussen

The way to emphasize clubs, while still showing diamonds, is to bid clubs then notrump. Doing it backwards may get you into diamonds when you belong in clubs, and offers no discernible offsetting advantage
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#14 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-May-22, 10:51

These freak hands are hard to bid. No one really knows what is right. I'll forget rubber bridge (I haven't played that in 30 years) and concentrate on MP or IMP scoring.

I think 5C is very reasonable. That would probably be my call. The opponents likely have a game in 4M (although South is getting some awful suit splits, so if he is an overbidder ...), and you want to bid 5m over that. So let's do so now, before the opponents can exchange information.
The clubs are sufficiently better than the diamonds that 5C seems preferable to 4NT.

The other approach would be to bid 4C now and then 4NT if (probably more like when) the opponents settle in 4M. This approach shows your hand far better. It suggests lots of clubs, some (though fewer) diamonds, and a hand that can bid on its own to the 5-level. That's exactly what you have. The trouble is that this strategy gives the opponents a lot more room to operate. The 2C bidder can get his suit in at the 4-level instead of at the five-level. If his partner passes 4M, then and over 4NT, the opener can pass, X, or cue-bid a minor. Much easier to find a slam.

To me, the advantage of 5C (it makes things much harder for the opponents) outweighs the disadvantage (you might belong in diamonds and be able to make 5D).

Cheers,
Mike
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#15 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2019-May-22, 12:46

At rubber bridge I would pass. They have the rubber in the bag. Let it go and hope to get your money back on the next rubber. At pairs or imps you go with the field and bid 4N or 5c although I have a sneaking admiration for the passers
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#16 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-May-22, 14:14

View Postnekthen, on 2019-May-22, 12:46, said:

At rubber bridge I would pass. They have the rubber in the bag. Let it go and hope to get your money back on the next rubber. At pairs or imps you go with the field and bid 4N or 5c although I have a sneaking admiration for the passers


You don't win at bridge by being pusillanimous. If you let the opponents bid these sorts of hands without interference, you will lose big in the long run at any form of scoring. How many tricks do you expect to be set in 5c,a anyway? Hey, on a good day, you might make it.

Cheers,
Mike
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#17 User is offline   Caitlynne 

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Posted 2019-May-22, 15:57

I am definitely bidding and I want to preempt. However, I don't like 5C for two reasons:
1. I have only seven clubs; 5C strongly suggests at least 8 clubs and no other good suit in which to play, so 5C is too much of an all or nothing (mastermind) bid.
2. I have a very fine FIVE card diamond suit. The likelihood of diamonds being a good place to play - e.g., should partner have 4 of them - is not particularly small.

So my plan is to hedge my bets:
1. Start with 4C. This suggests a 7 or 8 card suit and I have that.
2. If LHO bids 4M, and this gets passed to me, I will try 4N - unusual, and strongly suggesting 5 diamonds and 7 clubs.
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#18 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2019-May-22, 17:36

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-May-22, 14:14, said:

You don't win at bridge by being pusillanimous. If you let the opponents bid these sorts of hands without interference, you will lose big in the long run at any form of scoring. How many tricks do you expect to be set in 5c,a anyway? Hey, on a good day, you might make it.

Cheers,
Mike


imho I do not think you understand rubber bridge. Assume you go down in 5c, even undoubled. thats another 100 invested in this rubber. Opps are still game and 40 and massive favourites to win a 2 game rubber. (I am assuming this is old school rubber not chicago)
Rubber bridge is not about doing the best you can on one hand. It is about the series of hands that make up the rubber.

The other problem with bidding on this hand, at any form of scoring, is that you are very unlikely to win the auction, in which case you may well be pointing declarer towards the right path to make his contract

Last night I played in 3N and had to bring in AQT932 opposite K5 to make the contract. I played the K and finessed for the J. RHO had bid 2N for the minors. Without that bid I would have played for the drop and gone down
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#19 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-May-22, 22:29

View Postray_p, on 2019-May-22, 06:07, said:

The time to bid was that first round pass by E, which should have been a 3C pre-empt, rather than waiting for chance to bid unusual NT - especially at -40 below the line and favourable vulnerability.

Anything looks a bit late now opponents have been unleashed.

Consider 2 possibilities: (a) that the 2C bid was only to force partner into bid upto the 2M/3m level for game or
(b) It is a truly strong hand, but probably not slam going unless they find their good fit.

You have no defensive tricks, but partner may have 0-11 points (a) or 0-8 points (b), probably with no offensive value for you, but with some defensive value against game.
Make opponents earn their game, in full. Don't just rollover with a useful hand, compete to take out bidding space.

Sir. as a number of this or that have been suggested , I would like to ask WHAT does one bid IF IT WAS SOUTH WHO DEALT AND OPENED 2C. In fact perhaps the OP would also like to know what is the bid now.To imagine that South would have this or that or he is trying to fool is not the question here,The problem posed here is entirely different.THE OP is ,I feel, interested in knowing the options available, because it is also asked what will be the strategy at MP or IMP .Rather than giving a straight forward answer it has been dragged into hypothetic argument.Certainlty S FACING A NON PASSED PARTNER WITH ADVERSE VULNERABILITY shall NEVER open a false 2C strong GF and finally get penalised severely perhaps -800 or more.And just a polite reminder the EAST hand is NOT A PASSED HAND so there is no question of one doing anything on the so imagined FIRST ROUND.
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#20 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-May-23, 00:46

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-May-22, 22:29, said:

Sir. as a number of this or that have been suggested , I would like to ask WHAT does one bid IF IT WAS SOUTH WHO DEALT AND OPENED 2C. In fact perhaps the OP would also like to know what is the bid now.To imagine that South would have this or that or he is trying to fool is not the question here,The problem posed here is entirely different.THE OP is ,I feel, interested in knowing the options available, because it is also asked what will be the strategy at MP or IMP .Rather than giving a straight forward answer it has been dragged into hypothetic argument.Certainlty S FACING A NON PASSED PARTNER WITH ADVERSE VULNERABILITY shall NEVER open a false 2C strong GF and finally get penalised severely perhaps -800 or more.And just a polite reminder the EAST hand is NOT A PASSED HAND so there is no question of one doing anything on the so imagined FIRST ROUND.

A 3C bid suggested by " ray p" would have been A BID OUT OF TURN and subject to penalties.
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