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The forever suit Diamonds everywhere

#1 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2019-May-12, 13:18

Red vs. White, MPs

#1: East deals and opens 1. What do you choose? Pass; 2; something else?
You're in the second seat and you hold:


#2: Let's say you pass in the first round. LHO responds forcing 1NT (they play 2/1) and partner surprises you with a 2 overcall. Opener continues with 2. How high do you go?

#3: Branch A: You raise to 3 or jump to 4. LHO (the forcing 1NT bidder) now finds a bid of 4 followed by two passes back to you. Are you planning to bid more? If not, pass or Dbl?

#3: Branch B: You jump all the way to 5. LHO (the forcing 1NT bidder) now bids 5! followed by two passes back to you. Pass, Dbl or 6?

I found this an interesting situation, so thought I will post here and seek opinions.
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#2 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-May-12, 14:35

It's interesting, but we're not on the same wavelength.
I would bid 2 with no doubt whatsoever.
Trying to imagine that I did pass and it continued (1NT) 2 (2) then I bid 3 and take it from there.
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#3 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2019-May-12, 15:25

1. I would definitely pass first off. Massive length in opener's suit, my own suit is only 5 cards, and my honour distribution is dismal; not a two-level overcall in my book at any vulnerability.

2. Wonderful! My partner has an overcall; I'm glad he is aware that I don't. I think I'm bidding 3H, in all honesty. I don't see a reason to preempt, and while I can imagine hands where we make game but don't get there, I will cope with missing those in exchange for staying out of game opposite a stretching partner.

3. Branch A - Let's assume they've bid 4H over my cue; partner has passed. I don't believe that pass is forcing; do I believe I should bid? There's no way I'm doubling, that's for sure. I suppose I'm bidding. Could be a sacrifice; could be to make.

3. Branch B - I bid 5D first round; they have bid 5H. Good for them, they can play there.
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#4 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-May-12, 15:41

The second seat pass is clear. If you are tempted to introduce diamonds, I would bid 3d before 2d. I don't understand the idea behind 2d. Do they have a fit? Do you have any offense if YOU don't have a fit? Imagine you bid 2d, LHO passes and your partner bids 2s. If you bid 2n and your partner bids 3n are you sure you have enough? If you bid 3d, partner may pass with enough to actually make 3n. You force your side to guess what to do. The flip side of this is sometimes worse! You bid 2d and it goes X (or 2h), your partner bids 4d and it goes 4h-p-p-X. Your partner is expecting something from you, but do you really have enough to beat it? It's really embarrassing to have to write down 4hX making 5 when everyone else in the room is in a flat 4h +5.

After pass-1n-2d, you have to know your partner. Is this just a lead direct, or does it actually show a hand? If it's a lead direct, bid 5. If it's actually a hand, bid 4. You want to force them to the level where you think they can be beat, or make them guess on how high to go.
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#5 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-May-12, 16:11

I'm with pescetom, immediate 2 overcall for me. I consider the length in RHO's suit (without wanting to make a trap pass) a big plus factor.
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#6 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-May-12, 18:01

View Postsmerriman, on 2019-May-12, 16:11, said:

I'm with pescetom, immediate 2 overcall for me. I consider the length in RHO's suit (without wanting to make a trap pass) a big plus factor.

So the fact that you KNOW they don't have a spade fit makes you having a diamond fit more likely? Something I'm always preaching, beware the misfits.
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#7 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-May-12, 18:46

View PostHardVector, on 2019-May-12, 18:01, said:

So the fact that you KNOW they don't have a spade fit makes you having a diamond fit more likely?

Yes - a priori the chances that partner has 3 or more diamonds is about 55%; when opener is known to have at least 5 spades, this increases to 65%.

But I was more thinking that the hand will play well in diamonds due to the distribution.
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#8 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-May-12, 20:28

View Postsmerriman, on 2019-May-12, 18:46, said:

Yes - a priori the chances that partner has 3 or more diamonds is about 55%; when opener is known to have at least 5 spades, this increases to 65%.

But I was more thinking that the hand will play well in diamonds due to the distribution.

And I direct you to my previous statement, if partner has a decent hand, they will be shooting for 3n. In 3n, you have 2 1/2 tricks, so your partner has to come up with 6 or 7 on their own...out of position on the opening bidder.

I can't tell you how much I hate showing questionable values before I know who's hand it is. By the way, partner's presumed shortness in spades plays into your LHO as well. They are also likely to hold diamond length.
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#9 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-May-12, 23:00

I would overcall NV but not vul. After partner bids 2D and RHO 2H, I'd like to bid 3H to show a good raise in diamonds with shortage in hearts, provided that's the agreement. Failing that I can try 2S, or if that's not an option, 5D (the hand rates to make 5D on a draw-trumps-and-crossruff). Likewise after 3H-(4H)-p; (p) I bid 5D.

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#10 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-May-13, 09:43

PASS and then 3H over RHO'S 2H.After that keep on passing.
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#11 User is offline   ray_p 

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Posted 2019-May-13, 20:35

2D is a good lead-directing overcall to Partner while the bidding is low enough to show them and definitely preferable to a pass.

The opponents aren't likely to play in spades anyway, more likely finding a H or C fit or even NT. Also you're not very likely to get 1S down even if partner doubled.

Then consider you're not likely to voluntarily reach 5D after opponent has opened (although it might suggest a 5D sacrifice against 4H). You are looking to defend against NT, or compete or sacrifice with Diamonds, with doubling a higher spade an unlikely windfall.

So, start with a descriptive 2D bid for partner and see how the rest of the bidding looks, but bear in mind that even 2Dx could be painful in the unlikely event partner has nothing.
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#12 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-May-13, 21:47


Answers to Shyam's questions:

Mike Lawrence regards length in RHO's suit as an argument for overcalling but over 1, you might still prefer to pass at this vulnerability.
When partner overcalls 2,
- 5 is a vote of confidence,
- 3 is a more consultative and less committal alternative, and
- 4 might bring home the bacon on this deal.
When LHO goes on to 5, a contented pass seems appropriate. You have a massive fit but your other values seem defensive.

This post has been edited by nige1: 2019-May-17, 19:31

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#13 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2019-May-14, 13:01

OK, imagine that you don't know the South hand. You are North and you hold:


Would you bid one more?

This was from a daylong MPs (played on 11th May) and N/S actually have a slam in diamonds. I was South; the other three players were bots.

At the table, I passed in round 1, made a wimpy raise to 3 after North overcalled 2 (my blunder) and bid 5 when West jumped to 4 followed by two passes.

5 +1 was 67%; 6 was 99% (a shared top); 5 -1 was approx 20% (a dbl of the final contract didn't move the score much); allowing E/W to play in 4 was worth 6%.
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#14 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-May-17, 18:20

Now THIS is a 2d overcall. Why did you pass the first time? I'd bid 2d then rebid clubs at whatever level it was at when it came back.
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