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Exploring NT slams without quantitatives

#1 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-May-04, 18:33

Hi all

I (South) recently had this hand (North dealer) and was trying to get to a 4NT quantitative but couldn't manouvere the auction in that direction and ended up having a punt on 6NT via suit Blackwood exploration. The hand does make 6NT on some leads (and defensive plays) but is really only a 4NT which would have been how the quantitative worked out (3 points short).

Any tips on how to bid this and get to quantitatives. Note that North opened bidding with 1D and the NT responses I considered didnt seem to fit right, so I continued with a 2C force and we ended up exploring a heart slam which I converted to 6NT. But I was trying to get to 4NT. 1NT and 3NT responses were passed by North. The 2NT range wasnt correct either and 4NT response is Blackwood. Should you bid 2NT anyway and risk being passed or should North continue after 3NT. It seems the point ranges are missing something

regards P


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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-May-04, 18:47

I would expect the auction to start something like the following

1 - 2
2 - 2N
3N

South has the option to bid 4NT quant.
Not sure that they should
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-May-04, 21:32

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-May-04, 18:47, said:

I would expect the auction to start something like the following

1 - 2
2 - 2N
3N

South has the option to bid 4NT quant.
Not sure that they should


Thx Hrothgar. That is definitely the auction I was hoping for. Many of us reached as far as 2NT like that, but partner (in this case GiB) was reluctant to bid 3NT and bid 3S forcing South to either bid 3NT (passed) or blackwood and transition to NT with the right controls. Unfortunately since we had all the controls Blackwood didnt help identifying the other weaknesses in the hand, as you suggest

regards P
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#4 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2019-May-04, 23:16

This one is difficult without artificiality because of North having a 3-suiter (notoriously difficult to bid), the auction being 1d-2c which has a myriad of different styles for continuations, and the particular matter that South doesn't have a sure spade stopper.

If one were playing Kokish rebids, where 1d-2c-2h shows specifically 4=4=4=1 shape, it would be relatively easy, as South can then bid 3nt showing extra values (16-17/15-17 by agreement; weaker or stronger would just bid 2nt), and North with a minimum has an easy pass.
But almost no-one plays that; much more common are systems that prescribe a 2h rebid by North. Then South can't bid 3nt quite as readily as he could sometimes be facing 2 small spades (1 small spade?) and JTx is not really a great stopper in that instance. 2S 4th suit forcing would be chosen by some, but this elicits a 3S raise by North to show the 4441. Then South is end-played into 3nt having concealed extra values, as they don't really have enough for other calls. Most of the time this will be fine, but if North had a 17 count rather than a 13 count a good slam could be missed.

With a better spade stopper it would be easier to jump to 3nt as over the auction.
Note if you are playing with robots the jump to 3nt is often stupidly defined so you are screwed anyway. They've been buggy like this forever, you can't make quantitative NT bids intelligently when 3nt is some silly wide range overlapping 2nt. With bots just accept that you'll be missing some slams if partner has a lot of extras here.

Now if North is supposed to bid 2nt (not unreasonable), again South has an easy 3nt only as then North's 2nt is limited (12-14/15) or North would bid again over 3nt.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-May-05, 01:57

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-May-04, 18:47, said:

I would expect the auction to start something like the following

1 - 2
2 - 2N
3N

South has the option to bid 4NT quant.
Not sure that they should


Surely they should investigate, I'm no 2/1 expert, but can't N have a hand with more than 4 diamonds where 6 is good ?
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#6 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-May-05, 04:04

What about
1D-2C
2NT-4NT

Lots seem to be bidding 2H for openerís 2nd turn, but to me, this rebid is a (shaded) reverse. Opener is nowhere near as strong for that. But maybe ppl have different follow-ups after the tricky 1D-2C sequence (not GF).

I donít mind 2NT with a C singleton although 2D could be a 4-cd suit (eg 2443 with a small doubleton) as a default rebid. With 4441 and more points (15-17) you can bid 3NT. With even more points, 2NT as a waiting bid (min-max 2NT) then another run would do the job.

Here after 2NT, 4NT is really the max you can do (with all those aces and Axx in openerís suit) in case opener has a top 14 or bad 15 with 5 diamonds and a C singleton as
AQx
QJxx
KQxxx
x

But opener has an easy pass on that.
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-May-05, 07:10

View Postapollo1201, on 2019-May-05, 04:04, said:


Lots seem to be bidding 2H for openerís 2nd turn, but to me, this rebid is a (shaded) reverse. Opener is nowhere near as strong for that. But maybe ppl have different follow-ups after the tricky 1D-2C sequence (not GF).



We discussed this to death in another thread recently.
The expert consensus (ratified by bridgewinners and even TBW 2017) is that 1D-2C should be GF and that a successive 2H does not require extra strength.
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#8 User is offline   bravejason 

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Posted 2019-May-10, 12:39

With 2/1 GF and reversing not showing extra strength it seems the auction should go:
1D - 2C
2H - 2N
3S - 3N

South has a nice hand, but doesnít have a fit for Northís suits. North obviously doesnít like no trump. So what else can South do but end the auction?

In Standard, I think itís easier since the auction starts
1D - 2C
2N -
At this point south can estimate the points. Itís 31 HCP at most. Sure, South can throw in some extra points for the tens or suit quality or whatever, but south has no shape and north chose a no trump rebid over raising clubs so there no club fit either. Again, I donít see any choice other than 3N and end the auction. You could bid 4N instead, but that strikes me as a pleasant fantasy rather an impartial assessment of the situation.
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