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ATB off 3 aces

#1 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 01:23



IMPs, none vul

Any blame for getting to 5 missing three aces, or just unlucky that we had virtually every other point in the pack?

ahydra
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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 01:47

99.999% west for not making a perfectly normal 4 opening. Over that E has a much easier time identifying that we have control issues.

Even more so if Namyats is on the card.

If this isn't a 4 opening, what is?
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#3 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 02:58

When East doubles, West can simply rebid 3 - I don't understand the leap to four. Yes the hand is potentially strong if a fit is found. But until then, West should be treating this as an ace-less, misfitting 10-count.

If you feel that, based on shape, you definitely want to be in game after the double, then that is an indication that you should have opened 4 in the first place.
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#4 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 03:15

Hi,

I prefer 4H, but in the end this is a matter of style.
Unless the neg. X of 3D was gf, what is wrong with 3H? At one point you have to tell partner,
that you have a min. opening. Do you really want to play 4H facing a 10-12 bal. hand?
And No, the 4H bid is not fast arrival, ... unless the X generated a gf.

So if you want to blame someone, it is clear West that gets it all.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#5 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 13:57

I don't think 4H as an opening with the W hand is normal at all. It's a 7-card suit with nothing special about the hand, and half the points are outside the suit. A 4-level open should not look like a 3-level open with an extra K outside the suit - that's not how preempts work.

After that, the hand is not that strong. Don't punish partner for making a marginal double, non-vulnerable. Just go for 3H and you won't get to 5.
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#6 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 14:07

View PostDozyDom, on 2019-April-27, 13:57, said:

I don't think 4H as an opening with the W hand is normal at all. It's a 7-card suit with nothing special about the hand, and half the points are outside the suit. A 4-level open should not look like a 3-level open with an extra K outside the suit - that's not how preempts work.


Fair enough, but how would you open this hand?
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 16:52

4H on the second round was silly. I understand the 1H opening, though I’m not thrilled by it. But 3H is quite enough.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#8 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 18:46

View PostDozyDom, on 2019-April-27, 13:57, said:

I don't think 4H as an opening with the W hand is normal at all. It's a 7-card suit with nothing special about the hand, and half the points are outside the suit. A 4-level open should not look like a 3-level open with an extra K outside the suit - that's not how preempts work.

After that, the hand is not that strong. Don't punish partner for making a marginal double, non-vulnerable. Just go for 3H and you won't get to 5.


For people who use 4-level minor-suit bids or 3NT to show good 4M openers, 4M is reasonable with this hand.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#9 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 21:11

The 4 rebid wasn't good. 3 is better, then keep bidding and partner will eventually figure things out. --> Lots of and enough to open but not much else.
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#10 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 23:52

You guys are being harsh on West. If East had KJxx xx xxx Axxx and EW played in 3+1 who'd get the blame? Yes I know there might be a ruff, but still I think it's easy to visualise many minimum doubles of 3 that would make game decent.

Here are some bids I hate much much more:
- The suggested 4 opening. I just don't get it. Why? We have two defensive cards, we have good defense against 4, I just see no reason to bid one more than the normal 3.
- Double. Isn't this a completely normal 3N bid?
- 4N. This is way too aggressive - I think two keycards+Q is one of the most likely hands for partner and we are in 6 off two keycards for no reason. I am doubtful any move is justified, as 5 will often be down on a ruff, and we need a lot of cards from partner; but if we do move, it has to be another bid.
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#11 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 23:59

View Postcherdano, on 2019-April-27, 23:52, said:

You guys are being harsh on West. If East had KJxx xx xxx Axxx and EW played in 3+1 who'd get the blame?
Here are some bids I hate much much more:
- The suggested 4 opening. I just don't get it. Why?


Because it puts the guess on the opponents, and it means you don't score up 170. I expect 4 to have at least play opposite most random hands partner has.
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#12 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 02:25

View Postcherdano, on 2019-April-27, 23:52, said:

Here are some bids I hate much much more:
- Double. Isn't this a completely normal 3N bid?


Don't you bid 3NT with a 12-count and a double Stop? If you also bid 3NT with this 17-count it is a very wide-ranged bid.

I would prefer 4NT if natural - but this is RKCB for most.
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#13 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 03:01

Interesting responses, thanks all. My thinking as West was basically along the lines of cherdano's, give partner most fairly ordinary hands and 4H has play, given the CA is likely to be onside. That said, just bidding 3H is probably better (correcting partner's presumed 3NT to 4H) as it defines the hand's strength more closely. I don't like to pre-empt with so much defence (prefer at most 1 trick outside), perhaps even in 3rd seat too lest partner misjudge an ensuing competitive auction, though I probably would open 4H with this in 3rd. Not to mention we might belong in spades.

ahydra
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#14 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 03:37

View PostTylerE, on 2019-April-27, 01:47, said:

99.999% west for not making a perfectly normal 4 opening. Over that E has a much easier time identifying that we have control issues.

Even more so if Namyats is on the card.

If this isn't a 4 opening, what is?


100% agree
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#15 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 09:25

Sir,West hand is an example hand which defensive bidders will PASS.Aggressive bidders will open (personally I would too in the 3rd seat) 4H. Opening it 1H is far too misleading in the first two seats.The jump to 4H over partners double must have been made keeping in mind PFA fearful that 3H may be passed.If not, then 4H is totally unacceptable ,keeping in mind having opened it 1H. A 3H and then 4H would have been certainly the correct bids.Having said all this.if I was given this EAST hand and given the said bidding then certainly I too would have used RKC 4NT.However, it can (possibly) also be played as quantitative with prior understanding.To me it appears(and appears only) an irregular partnership and hence prone to misinterpretation of different situations and various bids resulting thereby.The West player has to be blamed (if someone has to be blamed at all) for the debacle.
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 14:22

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-April-28, 09:25, said:

The West player has to be blamed (if someone has to be blamed at all) for the debacle.


The only bid of West to escape criticism so far is 5. So may I add that I would prefer 5 (1403) if NT is the asking strain for hearts B-)
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#17 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 14:46

View Postcherdano, on 2019-April-27, 23:52, said:

You guys are being harsh on West. If East had KJxx xx xxx Axxx and EW played in 3+1 who'd get the blame? Yes I know there might be a ruff, but still I think it's easy to visualise many minimum doubles of 3 that would make game decent.

Here are some bids I hate much much more:
- The suggested 4 opening. I just don't get it. Why? We have two defensive cards, we have good defense against 4, I just see no reason to bid one more than the normal 3.
- Double. Isn't this a completely normal 3N bid?
- 4N. This is way too aggressive - I think two keycards+Q is one of the most likely hands for partner and we are in 6 off two keycards for no reason. I am doubtful any move is justified, as 5 will often be down on a ruff, and we need a lot of cards from partner; but if we do move, it has to be another bid.


At the 3 level, responder should have more than 8 HCP for a negative double. So rolling out a perfect fitting hand that makes 4 , but passes over 3 isn't likely. I'd expect pretty much opening values for the negative double very likely with 4 .

If the auction starts 1 - (3 ) - Double, then the chances of getting to the right spot improve after 3 .

After --

3 - 3 opener has to decide where to play, responder should be on 6+ with 10-11 as with more and 5+ , 3 would have been bid directly.

and ...

3 - 3 NT
3 - 4
3 - 4

Opener rebids 4 and responder won't expect more than a minimal opener with a lot of .
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#18 User is offline   Caitlynne 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 17:50

West is 100% to blame. And the culprit is the 4H rebid which was an egregiously huge overbid.

There is nothing truly wrong with a 1H opening. Many players would agree that there is too much side suit strength to preempt and that the extra length in hearts compensates for the marginal honor values enough to treat this as an opening 1 bid. Others would choose to open 3H or even 4H. Any of these is reasonable, so no blame there.

But, after opening 1H on a 10 HCP hand, you have to stay true to this decision. West treated his/her hand as a 1-bid and that is okay, but it is a minimum opening bid and subsequent actions need to be true to that treatment and evaluation. A jump rebid to 4H was not okay. Not even close because it shows considerable extra values.

Had West rebid 3H - as s/he must - East would have been content with game - probably 3NT that West could convert to 4H.
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#19 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 20:52

First off, opening 4h with this hand is nutty. 7-card OK suit; K and Q outside for defense. Insanity.

3H is possible, but I think 1H is a lot better.

Rebidding 4H isn't as insane as it looks. You have a 5 1/2-loser hand, and if partner lays down something like KJxx Jx xxx AJxx (a typical minimum), you will generally make game easily enough. You probably would bid 4D with a heart moose. I think I probably settle for 3H here, but it's close.

East's bid of 4NT is unwise. He only has one key. He has three probably worthless Jacks and the KQx of diamonds, which is also dead waste. I think pass is probably prudent here.

West is probably slightly better of settling for 3H; East probably should pass 4H; and part of it is bad luck (that's why people preempt).

Cheers,
mike
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#20 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 21:59

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-April-28, 20:52, said:

First off, opening 4h with this hand is nutty. 7-card OK suit; K and Q outside for defense. Insanity.

3H is possible, but I think 1H is a lot better.

Rebidding 4H isn't as insane as it looks. You have a 5 1/2-loser hand, and if partner lays down something like KJxx Jx xxx AJxxxx (a typical minimum), you will generally make game easily enough. You probably would bid 4D with a heart moose. I think I probably settle for 3H here, but it's close.

East's bid of 4NT is unwise. He only has one key. He has three probably worthless Jacks and the KQx of diamonds, which is also dead waste. I think pass is probably prudent here.

West is probably slightly better of settling for 3H; East probably should pass 4H; and part of it is bad luck (that's why people preempt).

Cheers,
mike


Good points, but I'd describe a 15-card hand as being a rather atypical minimum... :)

ahydra
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