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Rebid issue

#1 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 08:37

MPs, all green (not sure it matters, though)

Partner deals and opens 1S, you respond a forcing NT, and of course you hear 2D opposite. Now what with:

x
Jxxxx
Kxx
QJxx

Ideally, you’d want another S or D (to revert to 2S or pass 2D), or a more meaty H suit (to bid 2H), or a K more (to try 2NT). But you’ve got none of those...

I remember once bypassing a 4-cd major over a 1H opening and bid 1NT, just to be able to present my robust 6-cd diamond over partner’s expected 2C with sth like

Qxxx
x
KQT9xx
xx

But it is slightly different here.
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#2 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 11:16

Presumably that 1 could be a 3 card suit, eg 5332 shape? Pass does not seem an option. 2 seems a standout bid, maybe not perfect, but far and away the best of the bunch.
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#3 User is offline   heart76 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 12:34

I think I would pass. 2D is a 3 card suit only in a 5-3-3-2, where we'd have a better spot in H. But picture partner with a 5S4D hand and you can hope to trump 2 S.
If you really don't have the courage to pass, bid 2H and hope that partner has 2.
Btw, I assume that pd would rebid 2S with 6 instead of 2D.
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#4 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 13:05

Pass. Don't bid 2h, that will just compound the problem as you should have 6 for that. Partner has bid 2 suits, and you prefer diamonds, so pick diamonds.
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#5 User is online   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 01:43

Sir,This is just one hand illustrating the drawbacks of playing 2/1 and hence 1NT forcing.One has to face the consequences. .One starts to presume that opener may have only 3 cards in Diamonds.One can not bid 2H nor 2S. The only option left is PASS and hope for the best.Opener can have various patterns even 5-1-5-2 for that matter and a bare 10 HCP(if playing the rule of 20).One will certainly land in trouble if one does not pass now (making unnecessary presumptions about what if opener has this or that distribution).I would be very thankful if an all-acceptable RATIONAL bid is suggested by experts of that system.
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#6 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 01:59

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-April-22, 01:43, said:

Sir,This is just one hand illustrating the drawbacks of playing 2/1 and hence 1NT forcing.One has to face the consequences. .One starts to presume that opener may have only 3 cards in Diamonds.

It's a drawback of 1nt forcing, not of 2/1. If you play 2/1 with 1nt semi-forcing then opener with a minimal 5332 would have passed 1nt, so now you can pass 2D with fewer qualms.
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#7 User is online   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 04:32

View Postpescetom, on 2019-April-22, 01:59, said:

It's a drawback of 1nt forcing, not of 2/1. If you play 2/1 with 1nt semi-forcing then opener with a minimal 5332 would have passed 1nt, so now you can pass 2D with fewer qualms.


Sir,THANKS. Opener MUST have the option to PASS with a minimal balanced hand.(It will be comparable to bidding a weak NT with a 5 card Spade suit and should certainly be acceptable to many).incidently my comment was based upon the OP that 1NT is FORCING.Therein lies the worry that opener may have 5332 pattern.
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#8 User is offline   nudnikbp 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 05:49

Pass and hope 2D is playable.
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#9 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 10:26

Absolutely no option but to Pass. And while I do play semi-forcing 1NT with 2/1, doing so does not guarantee that partner has more than 3 Diamonds. You only pass if you would not accept a delayed (3 card) limit raise. So with say AKJxx, xx, AQx, xxx you would still bid 2D.
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#10 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 12:12

Thanks all. It was an unfamiliar partner btw, and to avoid further nebulous followings, I passed hoping he was at least 5x4x and not 5332 where 2H would be a fantastic spot. Maybe someone would balance in a strong 4-cd H suit and rescue us...

He actually was 5143 and that was a decent contract. Not that it proves anything, though.
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#11 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 14:18

Playing standard 2/1, pass is your only call, and it's not even close.

If you don't like losing hearts in this sort of situation, then play something like BART.

Cheers,
Mike
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#12 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 14:19

View Postiandayre, on 2019-April-22, 10:26, said:

Absolutely no option but to Pass. And while I do play semi-forcing 1NT with 2/1, doing so does not guarantee that partner has more than 3 Diamonds. You only pass if you would not accept a delayed (3 card) limit raise. So with say AKJxx, xx, AQx, xxx you would still bid 2D.


I hope you would bid 2C with that hand, not 2D.

Cheers,
Mike
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#13 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-April-23, 00:30

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-April-22, 14:18, said:


If you don't like losing hearts in this sort of situation, then play something like BART.


From what I can read, it is a sort of non-compulsory transfer to 2H with a back-up plan in a black suit should opener dislike H. However, it seems to only apply over a 2C rebid. Could you pls explain how it works over 2D? Thanks!
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-23, 08:21

I think that some problems could be solved by playing 2/1 GF with a weak NT. Now opener does not have to decide what to do when partner bids a forcing 1NT when opener has a weak NT.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#15 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-April-23, 12:31

One popular way to reduce the frequency of this rebid problem, while still playing 1N as forcing for one round, is to make your 2D call promise 4 cards in the suit. You have to overload 2C: it is now only 2+. Now, 4=5=3=1 hands are an issue, for those of us (including me) who do not play flannery, but 4=5=3=1 hands are very rare. If you have that hand, you can lie about diamonds with a good holding or clubs.

Obviously one can also play 1N as semi-forcing, but it isn't as simple as just announcing 'semi-forcing'. Many 2/1 players include 3 card limit raises in their 1N structure, and it is generally not a good idea to play 1N with 5332 13 counts opposite a limit raise of the major....yes, you will usually make 1N, but you will also usually lose an imp or two, and of course usually get a terrible mp score.

Hence most who play 1N as semi-forcing have to put the 3 card limit raise somewhere else in their system, which in turn has effects.

Bridge system design is all about risk-reward in compromises. On balancer, imo, if one wants to preserve 1N as forcing, the best solution is to make 2C nearly artificial. By the way, doing so fits in well with the use of BART or equivalent conventions, and also (tho I have not played it) with Gazilli, but these are for more advanced players.
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#16 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2019-April-23, 17:58

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-April-22, 14:19, said:

I hope you would bid 2C with that hand, not 2D.

Cheers,
Mike

Right of course. But with 3H and 2C.....
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