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inviting NT and continuations

#1 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 09:28

Playing a nebulous 1D opening and looking at 1D-1M, 1N follow ups. Like many, I have two ways of inviting 2N

1D-1M, 1N-2C, 2D-2N vs
1D-1M, 1N-2N

Since opener hasn't shown a minor, is it more useful to show a minor with one of the sequences (the other would only deny that minor) vs using one to be a stronger invite than the other?

I'm thinking it would be more useful to have one invite show 12 and the other 13.

Next question is after arriving at 2N, does anyone use 3C by opener to check on stoppers or shortness? I'm leaning to ask if responder has shortness.

Systems that allow opener to open a minor naturally allow responder to introduce a major and then invite later in that minor. I'm looking to get some of that back.
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 13:02

We use these sequences to show shortness; there are actually a few more of them:

1d-1s-1nt-2c-2d-2nt = short hearts 4144 or similar
1d-1h-1nt-2c-2d-2nt = short spades 1444 or similar
1d-1h-1nt-2c-2d-2s = short diamonds 4414 or similar
1d-1h-1nt-2s = short clubs 4441 or similar
Adam W. Meyerson
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#3 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 13:43

Thanks. On a related matter, I've been thinking of using your NT structure after 1D-1S, 1N with just two tweaks

2C-stayman
2D-5S/4 sign off or 6S inv+
.....2H-1-x-y-z
..........2S-6S, GI
.....2S-2-3S
2H-transfer and all continuations
2S-size ask, clubs
2N-mss or D
3C-puppet (initially transfers to diamonds but this handles 4-3-x-y patterns)
3D-3-suited, short club
3H-5S/5H, GF
3S-4-1-x-y

I think this mostly gives up inviting a minor with 4S/6m.

Do you think this is any good or do you think 2-way NMF is better?
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#4 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 14:39

View Poststraube, on 2019-April-20, 13:43, said:

Thanks. On a related matter, I've been thinking of using your NT structure after 1D-1S, 1N with just two tweaks

2C-stayman
2D-5S/4 sign off or 6S inv+
.....1-x-y-z
.....2S-6S, GI
2H-transfer and all continuations
2S-size ask, clubs
2N-mss or D
3C-puppet (initially transfers to diamonds but this handles 4-3-x-y patterns)
3D-3-suited, short club
3H-5S/5H, GF
3S-4-1-x-y

I think this mostly gives up inviting a minor with 4S/6m.

Do you think this is any good or do you think 2-way NMF is better?


I think it's better to play 2 forces 2 here (even if you're using the rest of this structure). This lets you get out in 2 on a declined invite, and also lets you play 2 when that's the best spot. One element of Sam and my style is that there isn't really a unilateral signoff in 2 on this auction (because we bid 1-2 on 6 signoff) so responder's 2 rebid is a 5-4m combination and opener can remove it with 1444 or the like. This seems a bit more awkward when 2 is a transfer and might be a good hand (so breaking the transfer to show singleton spade might be less desirable and/or make it hard to sort out what's forcing).
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#5 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 15:20

ok. So (and keeping in mind that my 1D-2H is reverse Flannery) my initial reaction was

2C-D sign off or invite
2D-GF relay
2H-transfer
2S-GI 6S
2N-light invite
3C-sign off
3D-41xy
3H-4x1y
3S-4xy1

and this leaves the messy situation you described where opener wants to break the transfer with 1xyz. I was trying to prevent opener from also removing from a 6-1 S fit when responder is inviting. So what if instead I play

1D-2H reverse Flannery
1D-2S GI

and then after 1D-1S, 1N
2C-D sign off or invite
.....2D
..........2H-GI 5S/4H
..........2S-GI, only 5S
2D-GF relay
2H-transfer
.....2S-
..........P-WJS
..........other-IMprecision structure
2S-5S/4m
.....p/c
2N-invite, not short hearts
3C-sign off
etc

What do you think? How do you use 3C and higher rebids? I think also for your 3-suited, but you probably arrange them better. I guess I don't really need 3C as a sign off since I could transfer to spades and then trick opener into relaying 3C but that could get some interference.
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#6 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 16:31

Seems okay if you believe in reverse flannery (I really don't).
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Posted 2019-April-20, 17:20

I like that it unloads the 1S response but it causes problems for hearts.

You've saved me a lot of time and trouble. Thanks a lot.
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Posted 2019-April-22, 02:31

Here's another possibility:

2 = sign off in diamonds, or invite with 5, or invite with clubs, or slammish with four spades and (semi) balanced
... 2 forced and then:
...... Pass = sign off in diamonds
...... 2 = invite with both majors
...... 2 = invite with exactly five spades
...... 2NT = invite with five clubs
...... 3 = invite with six clubs
...... 3 = minor suit stayman with 4(234) type hand and slam interest
...... 3M = 42(25) type hand (3-->clubs, 3-->diamonds) and slam interest
...... 3NT = 4333 quantitative invite to slam
2 = sign off with 5 and a 4+ side suit, or invite with diamonds, or GF with both majors
... 2 = four hearts, or 1-3 in the majors
...... Pass = both majors signoff
...... 2 = 5 and 4+minor signoff (others same as after opener's 2 below)
... 2 = 2-3, less than four hearts
...... Pass = signoff with 5 and a 4+ side suit
...... 2NT = invite with five diamonds
...... 3 = 5+/4 majors GF (now 3 asks shortage, 3M shows fit)
...... 3 = invite with six diamonds
...... 3M = 5+/5+ majors showing high/low shortage
...... 4M = to play (normally bidding the major opener prefers)
2 = GF with 5+ or GF with 4-6m and weak in both side suits
... 2 = 2-3, now same as after transfers to 1NT
... 2NT = 1, now GF natural bidding
2 = exactly invitational with 6+
2NT = invite with only 4, no 5+minor
3 = sign off with long clubs
3 = GF four spades short hearts
3 = GF four spades short diamonds
3 = GF four spades short clubs
3NT = to play
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#9 User is online   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 02:40

I didn't know many had two ways of inviting 3NT in an XY checkback context. To me it seems that many who has discussed the sequences use one of the 2NT bids as artificial, but I may be wrong.

I used to play this:

- 1D-1M; 1NT-2NT = Invite to 3NT.
- 1D-1M; 1NT-2C; 2D-2M = Invite with 5M, suit oriented or lightish.
- 1D-1M; 1NT-2C; 2D-2NT = Sound invite to 3NT with 5M.

Perhaps it was due to inexperience (hadn't played for long when using this) but I almost never used the route of bidding 2NT as the invite with 5M. It seems more beneficial being able to stop in 2M.

Now I use the following:

1D-1M; 1NT---
2C = Puppet to 2D.
..2D = Forced.
....Pass = Sign-off.
....2M = Invite with 5M.
....2NT = Invite to 3NT.
....3new = Invite with 5-5.
....3NT = Choice of games with 5M. Opener may choose to play 3NT even though there's a 5-3 fit.
2D = GF relay.
2HS = Natural not forcing. I don't think we currently use 1D-1H; 1NT-2S as anything specific.
2NT = Puppet to 3C.
..3C = Forced.
....Pass = Sign-off.
....3new = Slam interest with 5-5.
....3M = Slam interest with 5-5 major + clubs.
3m = Invite with 5+m and 4M.
3M = Invite.
3NT = To play.

The sign-off in clubs thing has happened a few times, usually with good results. The slam interested 5-5 hand I think have happened once or twice, and I believe we didn't play slam in any of those hands :D
It's probably better to play 2NT as the direct invite and have the club puppet thing go via the 2C puppet. My partner thought it was easier to remember "all" invites through 2C though.
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#10 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 12:43

View Postawm, on 2019-April-22, 02:31, said:

Here's another possibility:

2 = sign off in diamonds, or invite with 5, or invite with clubs, or slammish with four spades and (semi) balanced
... 2 forced and then:
...... Pass = sign off in diamonds
...... 2 = invite with both majors
...... 2 = invite with exactly five spades
...... 2NT = invite with five clubs
...... 3 = invite with six clubs
...... 3 = minor suit stayman with 4(234) type hand and slam interest
...... 3M = 42(25) type hand (3-->clubs, 3-->diamonds) and slam interest
...... 3NT = 4333 quantitative invite to slam
2 = sign off with 5 and a 4+ side suit, or invite with diamonds, or GF with both majors
... 2 = four hearts, or 1-3 in the majors
...... Pass = both majors signoff
...... 2 = 5 and 4+minor signoff (others same as after opener's 2 below)
... 2 = 2-3, less than four hearts
...... Pass = signoff with 5 and a 4+ side suit
...... 2NT = invite with five diamonds
...... 3 = 5+/4 majors GF (now 3 asks shortage, 3M shows fit)
...... 3 = invite with six diamonds
...... 3M = 5+/5+ majors showing high/low shortage
...... 4M = to play (normally bidding the major opener prefers)
2 = GF with 5+ or GF with 4-6m and weak in both side suits
... 2 = 2-3, now same as after transfers to 1NT
... 2NT = 1, now GF natural bidding
2 = exactly invitational with 6+
2NT = invite with only 4, no 5+minor
3 = sign off with long clubs
3 = GF four spades short hearts
3 = GF four spades short diamonds
3 = GF four spades short clubs
3NT = to play


That's really quite good. It handles the Reverse Flannery hand. Seems it would be immediately suited for your methods and tempts me to switch to 1D-2H as weak. I've forgotten what your 1D-1S, 2m rebids are. Was it

2C-etc but not 11-13 with 1xyz
2D-1453 14-15 or 0454

What would you think of giving up Reverse Flannery and doing

2C-1xyz or 04(54), 13-15
2D-5D/5C

Then after 1D-1S, 2C give up trying to relay
.....2D-preference
.....2H-5S/4H
.....2S-GI
.....3S-maybe asks for 4 hearts?
.....etc-invitational

But yuck. I want a forcing bid that's lower. Maybe I don't need to be able to play 2S since I've got a GI 6S opposite a 13-15 so
.....2D-preference
.....2H-5S/4H
.....2S-GF relay
.....etc
.....3S-GI 6S, worried

but after 1D-1S, 2D probably
.....2H-still relay
.....2S-GI
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#11 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 13:43

What we actually do is:

1-1:
... 1NT = 11-13 balanced or 14xy or 1345 or 2245
... 2 = 5+ and 4+ and 0-3 and 0-2, or 14-15 with 1444/1435/1345/2245
... 2 = 04(45) any strength or 1453 with 14-15
... 2 = good spade raise
... 2 = not so good spade raise
... 2NT = spade raise with side void
... 3 = 6-5 in the minors either way non-minimum
... 3/3/3 = four-card spade raise with 14-15 and various singletons (h/m/l)

Responder is supposed to treat the 2 rebid as having 5/4 so will often correct to diamonds, after which the 14-15 hcp hands that are not 5/4 are supposed to bid again.

After the 2 rebid, pass/2/3 are signoffs, 2NT is a non-fitting invite, 2 is either GF relay or INV relay with 3/3 minors or INV relay with 4+, 3/3/3 are natural invites.
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Posted 2019-April-22, 14:46

How about your rebids after 1D-1H, 1N? From memory they include 3-1-(54) and 1D-1H, 1N-2H is 5H/4m p/c

Do you pass 1N with 45(31)? Can you differentiate GI 5H from GI 6H? Maybe you can do transfers like

2C-puppets 2D
.....2D
..........2H-5H, GI
2D-weak 5H/4m or IMprecision
.....2H-2 or 3 hearts
..........P-weak 5H/4m
...............IMprecision continuations
.....2S-3-1-(54)
..........IMprecision continuations(planning to drop opener in responder's minor with a weak 5H/4m)
2H-6H, GI
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Posted 2019-April-24, 13:22

Looking at 1D-1H, 1N now where 1N promises a balanced hand (even 22(54)). I have...

2C-forces 2D
.....2D
..........2H-GI 5+H
..........2S-GI 1444 or similar
..........2N-13
2D-transfer
.....IMprecision continuations
2H-4S/5H, GF
.....2S-relay (normal track)
2S-GF relay ask
.....this is normal track for us so no new machinery
2N-12
3C-to play
etc-3-suited short

So I feel a bit silly about the 4S/5H GF hands. Is it worth relaying these? I could instead have a 2H rebid be 6H GI. Is it worth separating 5 from 6 hearts when opener has promised 2-cd support?

I'm also looking for feedback about separating 12 from 13 hcp invitations. Adam uses his extra bids to separate invites based on shortness. Adam, what's your experience with this? I'm wondering how often it comes up and then how useful it is.

I can see arguments against separating 12 and 13. One is that responder should only raise with a 1.5 hcp range in the first place (or maybe 1 pt range or maybe not even invite at all). I could be playing a lot
of poor 2N contracts when I might have found a minor suit fit. OTOH, separating 12 from 13 seems like it would be used frequently and would help us get to and stay out of 3N better.
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Posted 2019-April-27, 20:01

After 1D-1H, 1N where 1N is balanced and 11-13

2C-forces 2D
.....2D-forced
..........2H-GI 5+ hearts
..........2S-light invite 5H/5m
..........2N-invite with 13
...............3C-asks shortness, else 3N
..........3m-invite with 4/6

2D-transfer
.....2H-
..........2S-4S/5H, GF
..........3H-5S/6H, GF
..........other-IMprecision

2H-light invite with 6H

2S-GF, asks pattern

2N-invite with 12
.....3C-asks shortness
..........3D-short spade
..........3H-short diamond
..........3S-short club
..........3N-no shortness

3C-to play

3D-3-suited, high short

3H-3-suited, mid short

3S-3-suited, low short

any thoughts?
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#15 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 00:15

I had a slightly different suggestion. This is partly driven by wanting to use the same structure over 1D-1H-1S, 1D-1H-1NT, and to be similar to 1D-1S-1NT where possible.

1D-1H-1S/1NT:

3D/3H/3S = GF with 4H only and H/M/L shortness
3C = to play
2NT = Natural invite
2H = 6+ heart invite
2D = 5+H weak or gf, or a gf 4-6, or inv with diamonds
... 2H = 2-3H
....... pass = weak 5H and a side suit
....... 2S = inv with 5+D
....... 2nt thru 3d = as after 1nt-2D-2h
....... 3nt = 5H-332 choice of game
....... 4m = splinter for heart
... 2S = 0-1 heart
....... 2nt = 4+ clubs weak or gf
....... 3c = 4+ diamonds weak or gf
....... 3d = inv with 5+d
2C = diamond s/o or various invite-plus
... 2D forced
....... 2h = 5H invite
....... 2nt = five clubs invite
....... 3c = six clubs invite
....... 3d = minor suit stayman
....... 3M = 2452/2425 slam tries
....... 3nt = 5H-332 slam try

This leaves a couple sequences:

1D-1H-1S-2S = normal raise
1D-1H-1S-2C-2D-2S = inv raise
1D-1H-1S-2D-2H/2S-3S = gf raise
1D-1H-1S-2D-2H/2S-3H = slam try long hearts

1D-1H-1NT-2S = 4s/5+h gf (2nt shape relay)
1D-1H-1NT-2C-2D-2S = 1444 invite
1D-1H-1NT-2D-2H/2S-3S = 5/6 majors gf
1D-1H-1NT-2D-2H/2S-3H = slam try long hearts
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Posted 2019-April-28, 05:07

I have a different starting place so couldn't use that exactly but it's useful to know what information you're prioritizing. I've wondered whether showing GI with 6H vs 5H would be more helpful to us or the opponents but thinking likely to us. Would you make the distinction between 5 and 6 if you weren't concerned about opener having a singleton heart? I'm guessing it would be useful to let partner know that we're playing hearts and I'm looking for trump and aces; maybe I have a 6/4 hand.

I've rearranged so that 1D-1H, 1N-2D, 2H-2S is GI hearts (but only 5H/5m hands now). You might do something similar with

1D-1H, 1N-2D, 2H-2S as GF 4S/5H and
1D-1H, 1N-2S as GI diamonds. It's just a swap so whatever is mnemonic.

See you're prioritizing showing a 5m over 4441 and 4414 invites. It seems like the 1444 is the least likely to occur but the most important to know about.

Are you going to ask opener to relay your hand after you show 4S/5H? We're both at +1 there. If you did, what base and what super-accept would you use?

Do you think my idea of separating 12 and 13 invites is bad or would you just rather use the room for other things?
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Posted 2019-April-28, 07:16

Im not a real believer in separate invites for 12 and 13 here. Three point notrump ranges are quite narrow and some people dont believe in invites at all there! It seems like this will lead to too many invites (inviting on some hands that better pass or blast) as well as helping opponents count and using space that could be something better.

The concern with putting 4-5 gf into 2D is that opener rejects the transfer with short hearts and now the auction becomes convoluted. But maybe you can work it out.

Separating 5 vs 6 invite does seem good, although less so without openers singleton as a possibility. There are probably some 3-fit hands that are worth game opposite six and not five (you could re-raise to 3H on these but that is a level higher).
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Posted 2019-May-01, 08:43

After 1D-1H, 1N I wonder if it would make sense to split two invites between showing a weak doubleton or worse for spades or not.

If you add 2434 and 2443 (and maybe 2452) to 14xy you would probably double the frequency, influenced a bit by how you defined a weak doubleton.

If 1D-1M, 1N-2N were either 1)2425 or 2) no particular concern for spades (e.g. xxx or Kx) would that be an inference or an alert? I don't think 1D-1M, 1N-2N would be alertable if other routes could have shown various 4441s or 45s.
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