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Bidding Huge balanced hands

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 02:03

We play 3 weak 2s and the 2 response to 2 is a waiting bid, which might have as many as 10 HCP and no good 5 card suit.

Suppose I have AK KQ9 AKQxx AQ3, 27 HCP. Partner replies 2 (waiting). If I rebid 2NT partner might pass with 0-1 HCP. If I bid 3NT showing 25-26 and partner has a balanced 6 HCP with something like Qxx Jxx xxxx Kxx she will pass while 6NT is a laydown with a combined 33 HCP. And my 3NT rebid prevents a weak responder from showing a second negative.
How do I bid balanced hands with 25+ HCP after partner responds 2.
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#2 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 02:39

Some players play that a 2H rebid is a relay to 2S, whereupon you can rebid 2NT to show 24+ balanced, GF, while 2NT is 22-23 and can be passed. Or some others attribute different point ranges between a direct 3NT over 2D, or indirect (via the 2H relay). Of course, hands with H need to be bid differently following this scheme...

Finally, some players have given up the weak 2D due to its low preempriveness, to distinguish almost GF hands (unbalanced 2 tricks shy of game, 22-23 NT) with a 2C opening, and GF hands (balanced 24+, unbalanced 1 trick shy of game) with a 2D opening.

With the hand you gave, 27 with a good 5-cd diamond that can be upgraded to 28, you would force a little to reach 4NT. In case your partner with 6 HCPs hasnt already bid 4NT, quantitative, in case you have a little more than 24. So slam would be reached whatever the method.
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 04:10

Kokish - the 2 relay described above (if you actually have hearts you rebid something other than NT over 2) we find very useful.

We actually just keep bidding up in 2 point ranges so for us:

2N = good 19-21
2-2-2N = 22-23
2-2-2-2-2N = 24-25
2-2-3N = 26-27
2-2-2-2-3N = 28-29

And you have to discuss your system over the 3N rebid.
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 06:03

If not playing Kokish can have 2C-2D-4N=27-28
If not playing Gambling can have 3N=27-28
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 07:33

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-April-20, 04:10, said:

Kokish - the 2 relay described above (if you actually have hearts you rebid something other than NT over 2) we find very useful.

We actually just keep bidding up in 2 point ranges so for us:

2N = good 19-21
2-2-2N = 22-23
2-2-2-2-2N = 24-25
2-2-3N = 26-27
2-2-2-2-3N = 28-29

And you have to discuss your system over the 3N rebid.


We find it much more useful to split the 2 range so that your third auction is 20-21/22. This allows things like playing at the 2-level in a major or the 3-level in a minor.

And your second auction would just be 25+ for us; evidently we don’t get as good hands as you do!
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 08:26

Very big hands are memorable and good fun. But they are also very infrequent.

You can play Kokish - it is a very good system. But my advice to players in the N/B category is that there are other things to worry about first and Kokish is a lower priority.

A reasonable alternative on the given hand is to open 2C and rebid 3D (It's not as if you are ashamed of your diamond quality). You can always bid BY later.
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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 08:37

View PostVampyr, on 2019-April-20, 07:33, said:

We find it much more useful to split the 2 range so that your third auction is 20-21/22. This allows things like playing at the 2-level in a major or the 3-level in a minor.

And your second auction would just be 25+ for us; evidently we dont get as good hands as you do!


We play 2 GF unless balanced so never play in 2M.
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#8 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 08:52

I find it very weird to utilize Kokish to establish 2 pt range NT ladder. I thought the original development of Kokish relay was to put all 25+ NT into 2c-2d-2h-2s-2nt, so that responder had utilization of the normal gadgets over 2nt to find suit fits at a sane level. These 2 pt ladder systems seem to sacrifice this for these tight ranges. This also frees 2c-2d-3nt as a simply "to play" bid with a running suit + stoppers opposite 2d which IMO is best played as limited.
Are people really seeing frequent major positive swings by having 2 pt ladder vs. your peers who don't?

I just play 2c-2d-2nt = 22-24, 2c-2d-2h-2s-2nt as 25+, with 28+ opener bids again over game signoffs. Over 2c-2d-2h-2s-2nt you can also theoretically have sequence for responder to warn 28+ that he is really broke, to avoid getting higher than 3nt.
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#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 09:52

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-April-20, 08:37, said:

We play 2 GF unless balanced so never play in 2M.


Uh, we play the same. I don’t see the relevance.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#10 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 10:23

View PostVampyr, on 2019-April-20, 09:52, said:

Uh, we play the same. I dont see the relevance.


In that case I totally don't understand your "We find it much more useful to split the 2♣ range so that your third auction is 20-21/22. This allows things like playing at the 2-level in a major or the 3-level in a minor." - how and in what auction ?
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#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 10:45

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-April-20, 10:23, said:

In that case I totally don't understand your "We find it much more useful to split the 2♣ range so that your third auction is 20-21/22. This allows things like playing at the 2-level in a major or the 3-level in a minor." - how and in what auction ?


2-2-P.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 10:55

View PostVampyr, on 2019-April-20, 10:45, said:

2-2-P.


OK, we play 2 as a positive so don't have that option
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#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 18:30

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-April-20, 10:55, said:

OK, we play 2 as a positive so don't have that option


With your 2 balanced openers having a higher minimum that ours, you might find major-suit negatives more frequent (and possibly more useful). To play opposite 22-23 defines the hand even more than to play opposite 20-21/22.
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#14 User is online   fourdad 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 03:47

Just use 3NT as 25-27 HCP. Perfectly descriptive of your hand with one simple opening and your partner runs the auction.
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#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 04:24

View Postfourdad, on 2019-April-21, 03:47, said:

Just use 3NT as 25-27 HCP. Perfectly descriptive of your hand with one simple opening and your partner runs the auction.


The frequency of this is very poor indeed. We find this bid useful as a good 4M opening. Others prefer Gambling 3NT. My guess is that even the latter comes up more frequently than 25-27 or even 25+.
For those who have trouble showing their very strong hands, Multi might come in handy or even Mexican 2. While we’re at it, there’s always Benji!
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#16 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 09:28

The advantage of all sequences ending at 2N to show range, is that you then have the standard set of responses. Puppet, RSTs etc. 3N rebids take away the conversation
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#17 User is offline   Left2Right 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 12:13

As usual. I offer what no one else has: Whatever method you and partner decide to try, practice it at a BBO bidding or teaching table using one of my handy dandy constraint files. Click this link.

After clicking the link that leads to the code, read through the comments (the lines starting with a # sign). And on the first line after that, change "theLow=" to whatever lower part of the notrump range you want the dealer to deal; and change "theHigh=" to a number that is at least three points higher than the low. Example: theLow=27 theHigh=30

If you haven't used these constraints before, review my YouTube "how-to" video at this link.

Other writers were certainly correct that the Super Notrump hands are rare, but isn't it nice to know that you and your best partners will be prepared where others who have dismissed these hands are not.

Cheers.
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#18 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 13:27

View PostLiversidge, on 2019-April-20, 02:03, said:

We play 3 weak 2s and the 2 response to 2 is a waiting bid, which might have as many as 10 HCP and no good 5 card suit.

Suppose I have AK KQ9 AKQxx AQ3, 27 HCP. Partner replies 2 (waiting). If I rebid 2NT partner might pass with 0-1 HCP. If I bid 3NT showing 25-26 and partner has a balanced 6 HCP with something like Qxx Jxx xxxx Kxx she will pass while 6NT is a laydown with a combined 33 HCP. And my 3NT rebid prevents a weak responder from showing a second negative.
How do I bid balanced hands with 25+ HCP after partner responds 2.

The "standard" treatment after a 2d waiting bid is your show balanced hands in ranges. 2n: 22-24; 3n: 25-27; 4n: 28-29; 5n: 30-31. Usually with 32 or more in your hand, just go for the slam. Needless to say, this is very inefficient, and you should look to improve this when you can handle it. The easiest convention to learn for this is Kokish relays, which someone I think mentioned already. Bidding 4n or 5n is extremely rare, but 3n comes up occasionally. If you retain this understanding, it's important to discuss continuations with your partner. For instance; 2c-2d-3n(25-27)-4c?4d?4h?4s?4n? what do all those bids mean? They should be Stayman/transfer/transfer/minors/quantitative.
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#19 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 13:48

View PostHardVector, on 2019-April-21, 13:27, said:

The easiest convention to learn for this is Kokish relays, which someone I think mentioned already.


Yes, the whole thread has been about Kokish.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#20 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 19:47

View PostVampyr, on 2019-April-21, 13:48, said:

Yes, the whole thread has been about Kokish.

You will note I was responding to the original question.
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