BBO Discussion Forums: How desperate are you to win? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

How desperate are you to win?

Poll: How desperate are you to win? (33 member(s) have cast votes)

Please select two answers

  1. I wouldn't have called the director (3 votes [5.66%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.66%

  2. I would call the director, but would also not push for a ruling (11 votes [20.75%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.75%

  3. I would call the director and insist that declarer should lose a spade and two hearts (19 votes [35.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.85%

  4. If I were declarer, I would insist on conceding a spade and two hearts (20 votes [37.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.74%

  5. If I were declarer I would argue my case. Why shouldn't I be allowed to discard the low spade (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#21 User is offline   DCal 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 11
  • Joined: 2007-September-17
  • Location:Washington Township, Ohio
  • Interests:reading, playing guitar, bridge of course

Posted 2019-April-13, 12:36

It is not a matter of desperation. It is a matter of the rules of the game. The declarer called "any." Defenders are empowered to name the card to be played from dummy. If it is truly a contest, it is a matter of following the rules. Any one of us, almost certainly, has mistakenly called for the wrong card and not realized until too late that he or she had erred. This is the same situation. I have regretted the time or two that I have made such an error, but it never occurred to me ask anyone to let me take back my call. Additionally, I do not think that the director has the authority to just let a violation of the rules go.
0

#22 User is offline   eagles123 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,655
  • Joined: 2011-June-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK Near London
  • Interests:Crystal Palace

Posted 2019-April-13, 14:28

I tend not to bother calling director in club duplicates, other than unavoidable revoke/LOOT type calls I've called once ever, and that was when someone vul vs not after 1N p p bid 2s on jxxxx xxx qxx xxx after a long tank from their partner lol

however I think if you call director, which you're totally within your rights to, the actions of opponents kicking up a fuss/arguing is despicable.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
0

#23 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,454
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2019-April-13, 14:54

View Postnekthen, on 2019-April-13, 11:58, said:

People when you call the director, as you should IF you believe there has been an infringement, then you tell him/her what happened. The director consults the book and makes a ruling. You do not argue. You accept the decision and get on with the game.
If you think you can do better, by all means get trained and and become a director.


I fully agree with you up to "you accept the decision". It's generally the case, but not automatic. If you are not convinced then you do not argue but you do ask why, and if he/she was unable to convince you by citing laws and regulations then you should politely say so and get on with the game but appeal later. Directors make mistakes too, as this one did. There is process to deal with it.
0

#24 User is online   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,243
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2019-April-13, 15:06

The problem is that declarer could have avoided the problem altogether by designating that 9 be discarded instead of saying to discard any card.

If I was declarer I'd accept that an error was made and concede a and 2 .

I'd also call the director if I was a defender and let the director rule. It was an irregularity, so it's up to the director to sort things out.

Look, we all make silly mistakes from time to time, if we are competent players then we should accept when we do so.

Where I might be a tad more understanding is if the declarer involved was a novice/newer player who is struggling to adjust to playing competitive bridge. The last thing that I'd want to do is turn off that player to playing duplicate by being overly strident trying to enforce the rules.
1

#25 User is offline   SilentSong 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 2
  • Joined: 2013-December-27

Posted 2019-April-13, 17:27

I find the heading on the poll extremely disappointing, "how desperate are you to win?" because that shames the defenders for doing what they should do, call the director, get the ruling, and move on. It also seems to justify declarer arguing with the director. The director should have shut down any arguing. This is a simple decision. The poll should be titled more along the lines of, "do you have the class to accept the consequences of your own error?"
0

#26 User is offline   miamijd 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 511
  • Joined: 2015-November-14

Posted 2019-April-13, 20:38

I haven't played a club game in almost 20 years, but the less of the director I saw in a club game, the better. I don't know that I would have called the director, especially since the one at your club seems a bit dimwitted.

Tournament is another matter. Director gets called, and I would appeal the ruling if it didn't go my way, because it's obvious that the defenders should get to designate which card gets played.

Cheers,
Mike
0

#27 User is offline   42xxbfxx42 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 2016-August-13

Posted 2019-April-13, 22:40

The call of "any" by declarer is technically not allowed, and certainly the dummy is not allowed to use their judgement in determining which card to play ... if it were allowed, an inexperienced (or inattentive) declarer could then say play "any", asking partner, perhaps a professional, to make the correct discard ... we all know that the dummy is not allowed to be involved in the play of the hand.

This type of situation, and there are many, should be handled by the director ... at our club the "director please" call is always a friendly encounter and a learning experience.
0

#28 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 533
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2019-April-14, 04:41

Note that declarer can change the card played from dummy provided the card he called for was "a slip of the tongue":-

Declarer may correct an unintended designation of a card from dummy until he next plays a card from either his own hand or from dummy. A change of designation may be allowed after a slip of the tongue, but not after a loss of concentration or a reconsideration of action. If an opponent has, in turn, played a card that was legal before the change in designation, that opponent may withdraw the card so played, return it to his hand, and substitute another (see Laws 47D and 16C1). 5


It seems to me in this case that nominating "any" could only be considered a slip of the tongue if the previous trick or tricks were called out as something like "any small spade" and it was clear that "any" was just a continuation of this.
0

#29 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,454
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2019-April-14, 06:33

 GrahamJson, on 2019-April-14, 04:41, said:



It seems to me in this case that nominating "any" could only be considered a slip of the tongue if the previous trick or tricks were called out as something like "any small spade" and it was clear that "any" was just a continuation of this.

But nobody calls "any small spade" which is pointlessly ambiguous: they call "a spade " or "small spade".

In this particular case he could logically have called "a spade" or even "high spade " if he wanted. The fact that he argued it was obvious that he intended SMALL spade indicates that he wasn't thinking clearly even after the mistake.
0

#30 User is offline   mikestar13 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 577
  • Joined: 2010-October-27
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Redlands, CA USA

Posted 2019-April-14, 06:43

The Law plainly says when calling cards from dummy, declarer is to name both rank and suit. Just go ahead and do that. Small inarguable exceptions are reasonable such as naming the rank only when following suit or saying "low spade" holding A532. But don't ever say "play anything", I've played for forty years and haven't done that.
0

#31 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,454
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2019-April-14, 13:31

View Postmikestar13, on 2019-April-14, 06:43, said:

The Law plainly says when calling cards from dummy, declarer is to name both rank and suit. Just go ahead and do that. Small inarguable exceptions are reasonable such as naming the rank only when following suit or saying "low spade" holding A532. But don't ever say "play anything", I've played for forty years and haven't done that.


I also object politely when opponents say "take it" or "ruff it".
1

#32 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,362
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2019-April-15, 03:59

Thanks all. Interesting to gauge how others feel.

View PostLBengtsson, on 2019-April-13, 07:10, said:

what card did he discard on the previous trick, or was there a in dummy at that time?? if he discarded a small on previous trick, then 'any' surely would say a again.

No, there was a club in dummy. This was the first discard.


View PostSilentSong, on 2019-April-13, 17:27, said:

I find the heading on the poll extremely disappointing, "how desperate are you to win?"


View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-April-13, 10:15, said:

Sir calling the director has NOTHING TO DO WITH DESPERATION to win at all costs.

Yes, the use of "desperate" was a little provocative and although it was used for rhetorical effect it was a bit over the top. On the other hand ...


View PostIGoHomeNow, on 2019-April-13, 00:37, said:

The use of the word "desperate" in this poll is disgusting.

Maybe "disgusting" is also over the top!


View Postcherdano, on 2019-April-12, 11:13, said:

My goal at the club night is to play well, not to make enemies.


This was well put and reflects my own view. I was a little sad that declarer chose to argue his case. He is experienced enough to know better. Maybe declarer was a little too desperate to win?
0

#33 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,391
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2019-April-15, 13:27

View Post42xxbfxx42, on 2019-April-13, 22:40, said:

The call of "any" by declarer is technically not allowed, and certainly the dummy is not allowed to use their judgement in determining which card to play

You're right about the first thing - Law 46A says declarer plays a card in dummy by naming the rank and denomination of the card. You're wrong, technically, about the second, because Laws 42A3 and 45B instruct dummy to place the card declarer has played in the played position. Declarer called for some card, so dummy has to do that. It is true that dummy's judgement might not be allowed to stand, for as has been said Law 46B5 allows either defender to designate the card to be played.

I agree fully with others that calling the director should not be a problem, should not be viewed as "desperation to win" and should not result in any acrimony on anyone's part. There was an irregularity. If the defense wants to ignore that and not call the director, they have that right (see Law 9). But if anyone draws attention to the irregularity, all four players at the table are responsible to call the director. Even if attention is not called to it, either defender can call the director. Once that it done, what happens is up to the director, and to no one else, save that a contestant who disagrees with the director's ruling is entitled to appeal.

There is this "don't call the director in clubs" idea. I think it's a bad idea. Even club players ought to learn the rules of the game they're playing, and learn to accept with good grace the director's ruling when given.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#34 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,308
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2019-April-15, 18:05

View Postetha, on 2019-April-13, 04:53, said:

never claim never call for any card from dummy always pick them up and play them. Even I would have called the td here.


Proper procedure is that dummy plays the cards for declarer if she is at the table and is physically capable. I know that I would find it distracting if declarer played the cards every time. It is not like rubber bridge, where the cards are played into the middle of the table.

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-April-13, 10:15, said:

Sir calling the director has NOTHING TO DOI WITH DESPERATION to win at all costs.If it was an unimportant game I would condone the oversight and would not call the director.As per the conduct of the game any player except the dummy should call the director if ANY INFRINGEMENT occurs at the table.When Declarer said ANY then he should have corrected himself IN THE SAME BREATH as per the rules..Furthermore when the RHO followed to the trick it was too late for any correction.The late correction is an infringement.In a tournament of seriously minded players I,personally,,would certainly have called the Director and appealed had he allowed the card to be withdrawn.


It is surprising how many players think that “in the same breath” is a thing. It is not.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#35 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,454
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2019-April-16, 07:19

View PostVampyr, on 2019-April-15, 18:05, said:

Proper procedure is that dummy plays the cards for declarer if she is at the table and is physically capable. I know that I would find it distracting if declarer played the cards every time. It is not like rubber bridge, where the cards are played into the middle of the table.


I'm unduly sensitive to distraction, but I don't find it a problem when declarer plays the cards herself, so long as she does the whole thing effectively and without indecisions. Yes it's a bit irritating if she plays the card towards the middle of the table, but I can live with that. I find it more of a distraction when dummy is playing the cards but continually reorders them or gets a bit too involved in play, without clearly meriting a Director call.
0

#36 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,884
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2019-April-16, 09:46

For me it would depend who it was. If I thought they'd be an ass if roles were reversed, I'd definitely push it as far as I could. If I was sure they'd not push it, I'd not bother calling. If I didn't know them, not sure.
0

#37 User is offline   HardVector 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 212
  • Joined: 2018-May-28

Posted 2019-April-16, 11:57

I don't think that player strength should matter here, this is a teaching moment. When you say "any card" when designating a discard, you are stating that dummy's cards are immaterial to the future play. In other words, dummy should be dead and you are going to play your hand only. Clearly, this is not the case on this hand and the lack of focus (concentration) in realizing this should have consequences. Not only would I insist on winning those tricks, but if dummy attempted to discard the 9 as his "any" card, I would call the director and insist on a diamond discard. This is similar to making a claim and not realizing there is an outstanding trump.

As declarer, I should realize that I had made a big mistake and take my medicine.
0

#38 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,308
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted Yesterday, 16:06

View Postpescetom, on 2019-April-16, 07:19, said:

I'm unduly sensitive to distraction, but I don't find it a problem when declarer plays the cards herself, so long as she does the whole thing effectively and without indecisions. Yes it's a bit irritating if she plays the card towards the middle of the table, but I can live with that.


Mind you, many of us cannot reach far enough to play the card behind the dummy hand. I normally play the card near the board (on it if I am N/S) and then put the quitted card into the board.

But I feel that it is desirable to follow the procedure in the Laws.

I had a friend, a very good player, with whom I played sometimes. EVERY time he was dummy he was either at the bar (he was a big drinker) or having a fag. I found it really annoying to have to play every dummy myself.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users