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Free bid after XX?

#1 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2019-March-17, 02:52

I'd welcome some advice here - for both myself and my partner. I'm sitting West, pairs MPs.

I was with one of my regular partners. The N-S pair, whom I hadn't met before, never actually explained what (non-Acol) system they were playing (most of our club play Acol, and most of us don't show CCs), but they were alerting all their low-level bids, and I think they were playing Precision. Anyway, South explained the redouble as 3+ support for hearts.

Obviously we couldn't leave them in 1xx, but was it my partner's duty to take us out? My view is, no: hers is a 'free bid' and therefore if she has nothing to show she should leave it to me: after all I have shown some strength.

What happened was that she bid 1 as a sort of 'SOS'; I naturally interpreted this as showing a spade suit and some values, so I raised to 2 and then overcalled opponents 3 with 3.

Partner did her best but 4 tricks was all she could muster - and a 'bottom'.

I have to admit I had 'words' with my partner afterwards, later I apologised and she apologised too. Clearly a misunderstanding and we agreed "not to let it happen again!"

Here is where I'd like suggestions...
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-March-17, 03:53

Certainly we would pass your hand and bid 1 on your partner's, but that would end our involvement in the auction. We have the agreement that YOU don't remove without a 5 card suit.
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#3 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2019-March-17, 04:17

Issue 1:pass vs bid immediately after redouble.
This is up to partnership agreement. The most common agreement, the one I'd assume by default, is that pass shows no strong preference for a strain, and asks doubler to rescue to cheapest 4 cd suit. This allows you to pass with say 2 4 cd available suits at the 1 level, and maximize your chance of finding a 4-4 fit, rather than guessing one and finding partner with 3 only. Bidding a suit by advancer shows a preference for that suit *but does not show values*. It can't show values, because if pass, doubler might do something silly like bypass the suit they actually want to play in. Say 1d-x-xx and advancer is 2542 zero count. They really want to play 1h and no higher, but if they have to pass because you think 1h shows something, you might bid 1s on 4324, which on the other hand is what he wants when he had 4432 zero count and no preference between hearts and spades.

However, there some smaller contingent of good players who actually play pass of the redouble as *to play*, holding a lot of length in the opponent's suit. This probably makes more sense over a minor suit opener than a major vs opps who play 5 cd majors. This allows you to pass when it goes like 1c-x-xx and you have something like 6 clubs and nowhere else to go, but is less efficient at reliably finding 4-4 fits, since you have to just pick one when you don't want to defend 1c-rdbl. When pass of the redouble is to play, suit bids are even less informative, as partner may only have 3 cd suits to bid.


So with normal agreements, partner should *pass* 1h (since doesn't particularly want to declare 1s if you only have 3 of them), to let you bid 1S. With a fifth club they would bid 2c rather than pass, holding a strong preference.
But after 1s, you have no business competing yourself. 1S does *not* show values. It is just a desperate attempt to find some place to play, hopefully undoubled. 1s basically just says I have 4 spades, it can be zero HCP.
Issue 2:How to show values if you unexpectedly have strong values as advancer (and highly likely psychic opener or psychic redouble): If you are playing the std pass = no preference (vs. pass for penalties), then *pass* followed by bidding your own suit/raising partner can show unexpected strength. (immediate jumps over redouble are normally played as a preempt, not showing strength either, just length)

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#4 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-March-17, 05:03

Stephen (as often) pretty much says it all.

Xer: pls partner pick a suit
XXer: beware guys or there will be blood
Advancer who passes: thanks p, pick it yourself as I am ok with all you will bid, I don’t know which suit you have 4 or 3 so you better choose
Advancer who bids: that is were I want to play and I think that nasty XXer will penalize us if you try sth else; of course, only 13 cards are required (i.e. 0 HCPs) as we are in the process of escaping to try find our best contract at the lowest possible level

In all cases, given the overall strength expressed by opponents, competing to 3S at red was out of the question. 2S is risky even facing a partner with 4-cds with 15 not so great (but not so horrible) points, but is tempting to try push opps (but magic 200 could hit).
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#5 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2019-March-17, 10:07

View Post661_Pete, on 2019-March-17, 02:52, said:

The N-S pair, whom I hadn't met before, never actually explained what (non-Acol) system they were playing (most of our club play Acol, and most of us don't show CCs), but they were alerting all their low-level bids, and I think they were playing Precision. Anyway, South explained the redouble as 3+ support for hearts.

Was "3+ support for " the entire explanation provided by opponents? Typically the XX would have a HCP agreement as well (e.g. "max for passed hand" OR "8-10 HCP" OR some such). The absence of full explanation may have influenced your decision to bid on (e.g. what if North has 2 HCP and partner has 10?).

If the redouble was indicative of strength, Stephen's post is comprehensive and completely on point.
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#6 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-March-17, 11:14

The main suggestion being you jointly agree what 1 means. I have a lot of respect for Cyberyeti, but I think he is a minority with bidding on the East hand. Most would say 1 shows 4, and to detail my choice of method in general, it is that advancer (East) bids a 4 card major or failing that, a 4 card minor at the same level of bidding (ie 1 X XX 1), or failing that a 5 card suit that raises the level. Pass denies that distribution. A bid is a definite "show" of length, (and not strength), because pass is available.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-March-17, 12:39

View PostfromageGB, on 2019-March-17, 11:14, said:

The main suggestion being you jointly agree what 1 means. I have a lot of respect for Cyberyeti, but I think he is a minority with bidding on the East hand. Most would say 1 shows 4, and to detail my choice of method in general, it is that advancer (East) bids a 4 card major or failing that, a 4 card minor at the same level of bidding (ie 1 X XX 1), or failing that a 5 card suit that raises the level. Pass denies that distribution. A bid is a definite "show" of length, (and not strength), because pass is available.


OK I was confused as to which of EW was him and which was partner and who bid 1 at the table.

I'm never ever bidding with the E hand, I was assuming the bidding would go XX-P-P-1 and that was the last bid EW would make. I would also be very disappointed to make only 4 tricks.
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#8 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-March-17, 14:51

Most people play that redouble is the only strong bid over a double and shows values usually at least 9-10. If you give opener at least 10 for a 3rd seat opener (even if Precision), you're looking at approximately 9+10+15 = 34 about minimum for those three hands. Bridge logic says East has a maximum of about 5-6 and likely less if either opponent is more than a minimum for their calls.

About 20 HCP isn't enough to be contracting at the 3 level unless there is some significant distribution present. Doubler has a pretty flat hand. After 2 , if any further bidding is to be done, it should be by East. West doesn't have a clue what East bid on, but East by that point has a pretty good idea of what West's hand is and should be the one to compete if it's right.

After 1 plum - Double - Redouble, doubler should understand that the opponents likely have the balance of the points and scrambling is in order.


Note: Over 1 double, most play 1 as forcing and unlimited, but that 2 bids are not forcing.
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#9 User is online   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-March-17, 22:42

Bidding over this kind of "support redouble", which is effectively a raise to 2H, should be as you described - the same way that if it had gone, for example, 1C-(X)-1H. A double should show at least "something" as it's a free bid. Hence I don't like East's 1S; East should pass. After the XX gets passed back to West, he bids 1S (most definitely not wanting to play 1HXX!) and then EW are likely done bidding.

Over a more standard XX showing strength, I believe it's standard to play pass = "I want to run but have no preference as to where" at the 1-level, but a suggestion to play redoubled at the 2-level and up. If you don't play pass as "to play", then responder gets a free psyche of the redouble when holding almost anything with 3-card support for partner's pre-empt.

ahydra
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#10 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2019-March-17, 23:55

Perhaps N-S owed an alert plus a better explanation if the XX shows no fit (call the director after play?). Certainly bidding should imply holding something with a preference although 1 has some merit.

The problem with not passing is that partner may be more inclined to compete based on a fit.

But West should pass with this hand. Or bid 1 if passed around to them. Perhaps N - S will misjudge their final contract...
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#11 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted Yesterday, 01:03

View PostStephen Tu, on 2019-March-17, 04:17, said:

Issue 1:pass vs bid immediately after redouble.
This is up to partnership agreement. The most common agreement, the one I'd assume by default, is that pass shows no strong preference for a strain, and asks doubler to rescue to cheapest 4 cd suit. This allows you to pass with say 2 4 cd available suits at the 1 level, and maximize your chance of finding a 4-4 fit, rather than guessing one and finding partner with 3 only. Bidding a suit by advancer shows a preference for that suit *but does not show values*. It can't show values, because if pass, doubler might do something silly like bypass the suit they actually want to play in. Say 1d-x-xx and advancer is 2542 zero count. They really want to play 1h and no higher, but if they have to pass because you think 1h shows something, you might bid 1s on 4324, which on the other hand is what he wants when he had 4432 zero count and no preference between hearts and spades.

However, there some smaller contingent of good players who actually play pass of the redouble as *to play*, holding a lot of length in the opponent's suit. This probably makes more sense over a minor suit opener than a major vs opps who play 5 cd majors. This allows you to pass when it goes like 1c-x-xx and you have something like 6 clubs and nowhere else to go, but is less efficient at reliably finding 4-4 fits, since you have to just pick one when you don't want to defend 1c-rdbl. When pass of the redouble is to play, suit bids are even less informative, as partner may only have 3 cd suits to bid.


So with normal agreements, partner should *pass* 1h (since doesn't particularly want to declare 1s if you only have 3 of them), to let you bid 1S. With a fifth club they would bid 2c rather than pass, holding a strong preference.
But after 1s, you have no business competing yourself. 1S does *not* show values. It is just a desperate attempt to find some place to play, hopefully undoubled. 1s basically just says I have 4 spades, it can be zero HCP.
Issue 2:How to show values if you unexpectedly have strong values as advancer (and highly likely psychic opener or psychic redouble): If you are playing the std pass = no preference (vs. pass for penalties), then *pass* followed by bidding your own suit/raising partner can show unexpected strength. (immediate jumps over redouble are normally played as a preempt, not showing strength either, just length)


Sir,I personally, FULLY AND ENTIRELY agree with the most descriptive explanation given by you.The 1S bid should have been avoided and the doubler too does not have the requisites necessary for any further bid over 1S.(Any further bid has to have 16+ HCP OR a distributional hand to justify it.)
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#12 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted Yesterday, 01:32

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-March-17, 14:51, said:

Most people play that redouble is the only strong bid over a double and shows values usually at least 9-10. If you give opener at least 10 for a 3rd seat opener (even if Precision), you're looking at approximately 9+10+15 = 34 about minimum for those three hands. Bridge logic says East has a maximum of about 5-6 and likely less if either opponent is more than a minimum for their calls.

About 20 HCP isn't enough to be contracting at the 3 level unless there is some significant distribution present. Doubler has a pretty flat hand. After 2 , if any further bidding is to be done, it should be by East. West doesn't have a clue what East bid on, but East by that point has a pretty good idea of what West's hand is and should be the one to compete if it's right.

After 1 plum - Double - Redouble, doubler should understand that the opponents likely have the balance of the points and scrambling is in order.


Note: Over 1 double, most play 1 as forcing and unlimited, but that 2 bids are not forcing.

Sir.a redouble does not necessarily guarantee a support of at least 3 cards.Had the 1H opening been made in the 1/2 seat(when we were not a passed hand) the redouble ,as the way we play it, asks the opener to pass if he holds a normal i.e.12+ and 2 DEFENSIVE tricks, if advancer bids something.The redouble says ."wait for my next bid if you have a limited opening.My redouble may be a misfit but powerful hand where I desire to penalise them".The opener either obeys it or with a sub minimal opening bids normally.The redouble promises a desire to play upto 3 level in openers suit.(A 3 bid in openers suit instead of redouble is preemptive).A useful derivation that we use is .suppose advancer bids a suit then with a regulation opening AND holding Axx or Kxx in advancers suit the opener doubles to show that holding so that the redoubler knows that there is a guard in the suit if at all he is thinking of playing a NT contract.
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#13 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted Yesterday, 03:36

Thanks for the replies: I think this is more or less how I understand it. If I'd been in the North seat, playing Acol, I certainly wouldn't have redoubled; if playing 5CM I'd have simply raised to 2; if playing 4CM I'd have shown my suit (spades). Or I might have passed, if vulnerable.

In the East seat, assuming North didn't pass, I'd have passed in all circumstances. If North passes I'd have had to bid 2, though with a wince! (I hate it when partner doubles for takeout and I have nothing to show).

And - back in my West seat - I was wrong to raise spades - but I didn't realise that!

Whatever - one thing is clearly understood now. A free bid in that position is not an "SOS".
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#14 User is offline   bluechip10 

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Posted Yesterday, 08:54

View Post661_Pete, on 2019-March-17, 02:52, said:

I'd welcome some advice here - for both myself and my partner. I'm sitting West, pairs MPs.

I was with one of my regular partners. The N-S pair, whom I hadn't met before, never actually explained what (non-Acol) system they were playing (most of our club play Acol, and most of us don't show CCs), but they were alerting all their low-level bids, and I think they were playing Precision. Anyway, South explained the redouble as 3+ support for hearts.

Obviously we couldn't leave them in 1xx, but was it my partner's duty to take us out? My view is, no: hers is a 'free bid' and therefore if she has nothing to show she should leave it to me: after all I have shown some strength.

What happened was that she bid 1 as a sort of 'SOS'; I naturally interpreted this as showing a spade suit and some values, so I raised to 2 and then overcalled opponents 3 with 3.

Partner did her best but 4 tricks was all she could muster - and a 'bottom'.

I have to admit I had 'words' with my partner afterwards, later I apologised and she apologised too. Clearly a misunderstanding and we agreed "not to let it happen again!"

Here is where I'd like suggestions...

Your partner should pass. She indicates with her pass that she has no preference with any suit to which you take out.If say, she has a preference, she would bid the suit. I play a redouble implies no fit, which is a better application. Raises can be preemptive. I play Jordan 2NT to show a limit raise or better. This application has worked for decades. Even so, the partner of the doubler after a redouble has the obligation to help out her partner by passing or showing preference. Pretty simple. There will be times, when you play 4-3 and 5-2 fits. Even 3-3 fits on occasion. It's part of the game. The doubler's error was bidding 3spades.

Your duty getting the opps to the 3 level had succeeded. Your hand is too weak for a free raise to 3. Law of total tricks is in play. Plus your partner can have a spade suit and zero points. I'd discuss the hand with partner and both of you should apologize for the misunderstanding and poor judgement.
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#15 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted Yesterday, 15:11

View PostStephen Tu, on 2019-March-17, 04:17, said:

Issue 1:pass vs bid immediately after redouble.
This is up to partnership agreement. The most common agreement, the one I'd assume by default, is that pass shows no strong preference for a strain, and asks doubler to rescue to cheapest 4 cd suit. This allows you to pass with say 2 4 cd available suits at the 1 level, and maximize your chance of finding a 4-4 fit, rather than guessing one and finding partner with 3 only. Bidding a suit by advancer shows a preference for that suit *but does not show values*. It can't show values, because if pass, doubler might do something silly like bypass the suit they actually want to play in. Say 1d-x-xx and advancer is 2542 zero count. They really want to play 1h and no higher, but if they have to pass because you think 1h shows something, you might bid 1s on 4324, which on the other hand is what he wants when he had 4432 zero count and no preference between hearts and spades.

However, there some smaller contingent of good players who actually play pass of the redouble as *to play*, holding a lot of length in the opponent's suit. This probably makes more sense over a minor suit opener than a major vs opps who play 5 cd majors. This allows you to pass when it goes like 1c-x-xx and you have something like 6 clubs and nowhere else to go, but is less efficient at reliably finding 4-4 fits, since you have to just pick one when you don't want to defend 1c-rdbl. When pass of the redouble is to play, suit bids are even less informative, as partner may only have 3 cd suits to bid.


So with normal agreements, partner should *pass* 1h (since doesn't particularly want to declare 1s if you only have 3 of them), to let you bid 1S. With a fifth club they would bid 2c rather than pass, holding a strong preference.
But after 1s, you have no business competing yourself. 1S does *not* show values. It is just a desperate attempt to find some place to play, hopefully undoubled. 1s basically just says I have 4 spades, it can be zero HCP.
Issue 2:How to show values if you unexpectedly have strong values as advancer (and highly likely psychic opener or psychic redouble): If you are playing the std pass = no preference (vs. pass for penalties), then *pass* followed by bidding your own suit/raising partner can show unexpected strength. (immediate jumps over redouble are normally played as a preempt, not showing strength either, just length)


+1. I would add that playing XX to show "I want to play opener's contract XXed doesn't make much sense at all at the 1-level, but starts to make more sense as the level of opener's bid increases. I generally play it that way starting at the 3-level.

Cheers,
Mike
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#16 User is offline   maartenxq 

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Posted Today, 08:42

Assuming you did get the right explanation, which I doubt very much, opps are playing a silly system. In these conditions I thin you partner should pass. If xx is strength he can/must bid 1 . The doubler should realise that partner may have only 3 crd support and may be very weak.
As it went I think competing to 3 is way too much. If partner does not move after his first bid even 2 is already too much. You bid your hand thrice.

Maarten Baltussen
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#17 User is offline   DCal 

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Posted Today, 11:45

I would have passed. "Better to endure the evils we have than to flee to others we know not of."
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