BBO Discussion Forums: 2 club mistaken bid - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

2 club mistaken bid 2/1 ACBL

#21 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 18,188
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2019-March-17, 15:35

View PostVampyr, on 2019-March-16, 17:15, said:

Best not to distinguish them. There is no reasonable alternative.

That seems like a harsh attitude. You're essentially assuming the worst of players, and treating honest explanations that they misbid as attempts to get around Laws and regulations regarding psyches.

Most regulators and directors prefer to assume that players are honorable. We deal with cheaters as special exceptions.

#22 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,396
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2019-March-17, 18:12

I'm with Barry.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#23 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,323
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2019-March-17, 21:10

View Postbarmar, on 2019-March-17, 15:35, said:

That seems like a harsh attitude. You're essentially assuming the worst of players, and treating honest explanations that they misbid as attempts to get around Laws and regulations regarding psyches.

Most regulators and directors prefer to assume that players are honorable. We deal with cheaters as special exceptions.


I do not know why this regulation is in place. Is it because if a 2 response is virtually forced you have a controlled psych situation or is it supposed to provide some sort of protection to the opponents? If it is the former I agree with you, but if it is the lattter, the effect on the opponents is the same, so it should be treated the same. Although in the ACBL, the definition of a strong hand is “it looks strong to the player” , so presumably opening 2 on anything better than a completely minimum opener is not a psych.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#24 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,826
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2019-March-18, 01:49

View PostVampyr, on 2019-March-17, 21:10, said:

I do not know why this regulation is in place. Is it because if a 2 response is virtually forced you have a controlled psych situation or is it supposed to provide some sort of protection to the opponents? If it is the former I agree with you, but if it is the lattter, the effect on the opponents is the same, so it should be treated the same. Although in the ACBL, the definition of a strong hand is “it looks strong to the player” , so presumably opening 2 on anything better than a completely minimum opener is not a psych.

I suspect the purpose of Law 40B2{a}{v} is to legalize regulations protecting inexperienced players.
The problem is that there is (usually) no distinction between how to handle accidental and deliberate misbids respectively (when the offender discovers his misbid too late for Law 25A to apply).
1

#25 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 18,188
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2019-March-18, 08:50

View Postpran, on 2019-March-18, 01:49, said:

I suspect the purpose of Law 40B2{a}{v} is to legalize regulations protecting inexperienced players.
The problem is that there is (usually) no distinction between how to handle accidental and deliberate misbids respectively (when the offender discovers his misbid too late for Law 25A to apply).

I think the assumption is that misbids are more random, they're not more likely to be perpetrated against inexperienced players as tactical maneuvers.

The paradoxical thing about psyching against inexperienced players is that you generally don't need to -- they'll often hand you good results all by themselves. Most discussions about "when to psych" advise against doing it against beginners -- it leaves them with a bad feeling, and wasn't necessary in the first place. You should do it to try to get an edge against better players -- they'll never expect it from players they consider weaker than themselves.

And if we consider players to be generally honest, it's easy to distinguish misbids from psyches -- just ask the player. But this is also why the White Book recommends recording misbids along with psyches, so we can recognize a pattern. If someone has a habit of similar misbids that are consistent with tactical psyches, we may question their honesty when explaining what happened.

#26 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,323
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2019-March-18, 09:03

View Postbarmar, on 2019-March-18, 08:50, said:

I think the assumption is that misbids are more random, they're not more likely to be perpetrated against inexperienced players as tactical maneuvers.

The paradoxical thing about psyching against inexperienced players is that you generally don't need to -- they'll often hand you good results all by themselves. Most discussions about "when to psych" advise against doing it against beginners -- it leaves them with a bad feeling, and wasn't necessary in the first place. You should do it to try to get an edge against better players -- they'll never expect it from players they consider weaker than themselves.

And if we consider players to be generally honest, it's easy to distinguish misbids from psyches -- just ask the player. But this is also why the White Book recommends recording misbids along with psyches, so we can recognize a pattern. If someone has a habit of similar misbids that are consistent with tactical psyches, we may question their honesty when explaining what happened.


The OP is in a jurisdiction where it is illegal to psyche your strongest opening, so the White Book does not apply.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#27 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,396
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2019-March-18, 09:57

View PostVampyr, on 2019-March-17, 21:10, said:

Although in the ACBL, the definition of a strong hand is “it looks strong to the player”

This is no longer true. From the current convention charts:

Quote

d. “Strong”: A hand that contains:
i. at least 15 HCP; or
ii. at least 14 HCP and meets the “Rule of 24”.
iii. at least 5 Control Points and is within one trick of game assuming suits break evenly among the other hands.
e. “Very Strong”: A hand that contains:
i. at least 20 HCP; or
ii. at least 14 HCP and is within one trick of game assuming suits break evenly among the other hands.
iii. at least 5 Control Points and is within one trick of game assuming suits break evenly among the other hands.

On the Basic chart, an artificial 1!C opening must be strong and forcing; an artificial 2!C opening must be very strong. One might presume that the latter ought also to be forcing, but the regulation does not say so.

Note: it seems to me the punctuation in those two definitions is at best confusing. Should there by an "or" at the end of item ii in both cases? Maybe it should be an "and"?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#28 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,826
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2019-March-18, 16:35

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-March-18, 09:57, said:

Note: it seems to me the punctuation in those two definitions is at best confusing. Should there by an "or" at the end of item ii in both cases? Maybe it should be an "and"?

I vote for "or" in both cases.
0

#29 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,323
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2019-March-19, 08:34

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-March-18, 09:57, said:

This is no longer true. From the current convention charts:

On the Basic chart, an artificial 1!C opening must be strong and forcing; an artificial 2!C opening must be very strong. One might presume that the latter ought also to be forcing, but the regulation does not say so.

Note: it seems to me the punctuation in those two definitions is at best confusing. Should there by an "or" at the end of item ii in both cases? Maybe it should be an "and"?


That is a pretty reasonable regulation; perhaps “very strong” is a little restrictive.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#30 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 18,188
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2019-March-19, 09:35

View PostVampyr, on 2019-March-18, 09:03, said:

The OP is in a jurisdiction where it is illegal to psyche your strongest opening, so the White Book does not apply.

I wasn't suggesting that this be done in the OP's case, just explaining the logic behind the regulations.

#31 User is offline   weejonnie 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 703
  • Joined: 2012-April-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North-east England
  • Interests:Bridge Laws, Pedantary, Trolling,

Posted 2019-March-20, 08:47

Maybe East should have asked South if he agreed that he had UI from North's table manner. South's call is allowable if a pass after intervention shows values. If it isn't then we have to see what South's LAs are - and also if EW are damaged (which may depend on whether East would overcall 1NT (playing a WNT) or 1)

It is unfortunate that North did not know the law about being able to correct a mechanical error (you don't even need to do it without pause for thought these days)

Misbidding is not a breach under RA rules - just RWs.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
No one ever becomes a TD because of the money. They do it because they want to help bridge flourish in their club, region or nation.
Getting rid of one rude player might result in the arrival of four pleasant ones.
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users