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How would you proceed

#1 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 03:09

Hi all

I nearly bid this correctly but didnt really know how to proceed and missed out on what I thought was there?

What would you bid next and why. I was fairly certain we had likely slam but had no idea on how to tell partner I had clubs, how to explore slam, how to bid controls, whether to aim for clubs or no trumps. A few made the right call. Most of us missed out. Was 2D too conservative and should I make a positive response rather than waiting? What comes next after 2NT

regards P


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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 03:40

What range was 2N ? is this with a robot ? I will assume 23-24.

My strategy would depend on system, I can either transfer to clubs if that's available or just use Gerber if that is. I'm intending to bid 6 unless I find out there are too many losers. In my experience an 8 count with a 6 card suit makes a slam opposite 20-22 most of the time unless there are 2 off the top or one and a slow trump to lose, and we're in a better place here. Unless we're off 2 aces which I can probably find out or a cashing AK which I may or may not, I expect to be no worse than Ax opposite KJ 7th for no loser (or maybe 10x opposite KJ9 7th for one loser) for the slam.
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#3 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 05:00

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-March-08, 03:40, said:

What range was 2N ? is this with a robot ? I will assume 23-24.

My strategy would depend on system, I can either transfer to clubs if that's available or just use Gerber if that is. I'm intending to bid 6 unless I find out there are too many losers. In my experience an 8 count with a 6 card suit makes a slam opposite 20-22 most of the time unless there are 2 off the top or one and a slow trump to lose, and we're in a better place here. Unless we're off 2 aces which I can probably find out or a cashing AK which I may or may not, I expect to be no worse than Ax opposite KJ 7th for no loser (or maybe 10x opposite KJ9 7th for one loser) for the slam.


2NT was 22-24. I considered Gerber. I ended up bidding 5C unfortunately. I was tempted just to bid 6C but wanted to be more sure. Gerber would have given me 3 Aces

Do you think 2D is too weak and I could have bid 3C or something like that after 2C
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#4 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 05:17

View Postthepossum, on 2019-March-08, 05:00, said:

2NT was 22-24. I considered Gerber. I ended up bidding 5C unfortunately. I was tempted just to bid 6C but wanted to be more sure. Gerber would have given me 3 Aces

Do you think 2D is too weak and I could have bid 3C or something like that after 2C


5 is too timid, AQJx, Axx, Axx, Axx is only a 4333 19 count but 13 top tricks (although I might well bid 6 over 5 with that).

What is the hand opposite ? I'd prob bid by my methods 2N-3(variety of minor suited hands)-3N(forced)-4(natural, single suited and slammish), but what partner does next will be influenced by his actual hand.
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#5 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 05:25

This was North



Others reached 6C by bidding directly over 2NT, bidding 4C (non Gerber partners) after which N bid Blackwood, some bid 6C over 2C, one bid 2C-3C-3NT-6C
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#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 06:28

View Postthepossum, on 2019-March-08, 05:25, said:

This was North



Others reached 6C by bidding directly over 2NT, bidding 4C (non Gerber partners) after which N bid Blackwood, some bid 6C over 2C, one bid 2C-3C-3NT-6C


I think we would bid 2-2-2N-3-3N-4-4-4-6, 4 over 4 would ask aces, so 4 implies 2 losers in one of the other suits.

2 or 3 is a matter of agreement, I don't have an issue with either.
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#7 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 06:52

View Postthepossum, on 2019-March-08, 05:00, said:

2NT was 22-24. I considered Gerber. I ended up bidding 5C unfortunately. I was tempted just to bid 6C but wanted to be more sure. Gerber would have given me 3 Aces

Do you think 2D is too weak and I could have bid 3C or something like that after 2C


Whether or not you bid 3!C after 2!C is more a matter of agreement than anything else.
In my experience, most people use 2H/2S/3C/3D to show GF hands with a natural suit prefer to have better suit quality.
In many cases, there will be an explicit requirement for two of the top three honors or some such.

Personally, if I were going to show a positive response, I'd prefer 2NT to 3!C

I think that 5!C over 2NT is both unilateral and overly conservative.
You have bidding space. Might as well use it.
Alderaan delenda est
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#8 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 10:06

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-March-08, 06:52, said:

Personally, if I were going to show a positive response, I'd prefer 2NT to 3!C


Really? Why? It just gets in partner's way and wrong-sides a potential NT contract.

Here 6NT is excellent played by North (particularly at MPs, but also at IMPs), but 6NT is in great jeopardy played by South on a diamond lead.

I would not quarrel if partner gave a positive 3 (the suit length makes up a bit for the lack of suit quality). But I would probably mark time with a 2 response. After 2NT from partner I would jump to 4 (natural for us).
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#9 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 10:38

thePossum writes 'I nearly bid this correctly but didnt really know how to proceed and missed out on what I thought was there?What would you bid next and why. I was fairly certain we had likely slam but had no idea on how to tell partner I had clubs, how to explore slam, how to bid controls, whether to aim for clubs or no trumps. A few made the right call. Most of us missed out. Was 2D too conservative and should I make a positive response rather than waiting? What comes next after 2NT'
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Partnering GIB, after 2 - 2 - 2N - ?, I rank
1. 4 = Gerber. Check that we have 3+ As. If partner has 4 As, a grand might be possible.
2. 6N = S/O. Preferred bid at Match-points.
3. 6 = S/O. A reasonable punt. Right-sided because partner opened 2.

Easier when you can see both hands :)

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#10 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 11:51

6N is not necessarily the right spot, but probably reasonable at MPs, IMPs I'll take my small loss and play 6, rejoicing when the clubs are 4-0 and they lead a spade. You also can't be sure you're rightsiding this, make partner's pointy suits xxx, AKxx and you're wrongsided in 6/N.
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#11 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 16:44

Hi all

Thanks for the answers. I should have said it was IMP scoring and all the bid slams were clubs, 6/(6+1?)NT does make too. While I understand Gerber would have been a good bid in this case I thought that it (as a convention) almost interfered with my planning of bidding options - I'm not very familiar using it, more familiar to slower suit exploration, cues and Blackwood for suits and quantitatitives for NT.

With this hand combination I was just a bit concerned that even with 3 Aces I may fall a trick short due to my rather thin Club honours. However I should have taken the punt given the IMPs on offer. 5C+1 did not score very well, nor did 3NT + 3. I need to just follow my instincts more sometimes

The reason I initially just put a single hand and bidding is to try and ask about the problem I had in my head at that stage :)

Thanks again!

P

Here is the hand. The bot picked the spade lead against me


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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-March-08, 16:55

If you do use gerber, you need to be sure what your king ask is, if you can't sign off in 5 you may have an issue on this hand.
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#13 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-March-09, 05:05

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-March-08, 11:51, said:

6N is not necessarily the right spot, but probably reasonable at MPs, IMPs I'll take my small loss and play 6, rejoicing when the clubs are 4-0 and they lead a spade. You also can't be sure you're rightsiding this, make partner's pointy suits xxx, AKxx and you're wrongsided in 6/N.


Yes, fair point about the 4-0 club split (You gain 2 IMPs with 90% frequency and lose 14 or 15 IMPs with 10% frequency, but this is more than a simple mathematical calculation).

But I am not convinced that I should be declaring a NT contract. You would have to be pretty unlucky to find that partner has nothing to boost your spade holding given that partner holds 22+ points. As a general principle, I would always try to make the 2C opener declarer in a NT contract. I really do not see any merit in a 2NT response, which mis-describes my hand, gets in partner's way (imagine partner with a big major two-suiter) and will make us declare a NT contract.
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#14 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-March-09, 05:45

View PostTramticket, on 2019-March-09, 05:05, said:

Yes, fair point about the 4-0 club split (You gain 2 IMPs with 90% frequency and lose 14 or 15 IMPs with 10% frequency, but this is more than a simple mathematical calculation).

But I am not convinced that I should be declaring a NT contract. You would have to be pretty unlucky to find that partner has nothing to boost your spade holding given that partner holds 22+ points. As a general principle, I would always try to make the 2C opener declarer in a NT contract. I really do not see any merit in a 2NT response, which mis-describes my hand, gets in partner's way (imagine partner with a big major two-suiter) and will make us declare a NT contract.


I wasn't saying that you particularly wanted to declare NT, just that it's possible you might want to and the hand where you did was strikingly close to what was actually going on.

I don't like 2N either, 2 or 3 both better for me
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#15 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2019-March-09, 10:15

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-March-08, 16:55, said:

If you do use gerber, you need to be sure what your king ask is, if you can't sign off in 5 you may have an issue on this hand.

Over a 2A-response to Gerber, you would prefer 5 to be the K-ask, so that you can sign-off in 4N.
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#16 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-March-09, 11:03

View Postnige1, on 2019-March-09, 10:15, said:

Over a 2A-response to Gerber, you would prefer 5 to be the K-ask, so that you can sign-off in 4N.


My point exactly, but this means actually Gerber is not a good choice. Qxx, AKQx, AKQx, Qx would be unfortunate in 4N on a spade lead.
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#17 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-March-09, 11:45

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-March-09, 11:03, said:

My point exactly, but this means actually Gerber is not a good choice. Qxx, AKQx, AKQx, Qx would be unfortunate in 4N on a spade lead.


We too play that after a 4 Gerber ask, 4NT is signoff and 5 asks Kings.
Some play that 4 is a puppet in order to use 4NT as a Kings ask, which strikes me as perverse.
I guess one could play both 4 and 4NT as puppets and retain 5 as Kings ask, which would solve the problem of signing off in 5 (but create others).
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#18 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2019-March-09, 16:21

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-March-08, 16:55, said:

If you do use gerber, you need to be sure what your king ask is, if you can't sign off in 5 you may have an issue on this hand.

View Postnige1, on 2019-March-09, 10:15, said:

Over a 2A-response to Gerber, you would prefer 5 to be the K-ask, so that you can sign-off in 4N.

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-March-09, 11:03, said:

My point exactly, but this means actually Gerber is not a good choice. Qxx, AKQx, AKQx, Qx would be unfortunate in 4N on a spade lead.
It's a matter of opinion. Furthermore, there's no real disagreement. Nevertheless, IMO:
  • Using Gerber (or whatever) is better than just blasting a slam missing 2 aces.
  • With little space to explore, about 30 HCP between us, and missing 2As, 4N seems preferable to 5, especially at pairs.

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#19 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-March-09, 16:47

View Postnige1, on 2019-March-09, 16:21, said:

It's a matter of opinion. Furthermore, there's no real disagreement. Nevertheless, IMO:
  • Using Gerber (or whatever) is better than just blasting a slam missing 2 aces.
  • With little space to explore, about 30 HCP between us, and missing 2As, 4N seems preferable to 5, especially at pairs.



2N is the most likely rebid over 2-2 so you can think about that in advance, if I didn't have an agreed forcing way to bid clubs or I wasn't sure what it was, this would tip me over into giving an initial positive since Gerber could be problematic, or if I was able to bid 4 to show clubs either via 3 or directly I'd do that and most of the time let partner ask.
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