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1H-1S-1N underused?

#1 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2019-February-28, 04:20

I was thinking recently that the normal 2/1 sequence:

1-1-1N

seemed pretty underused in my style, and so 1N might be used as an artificial bid to free up various raises, Gazelli style options, or the like. Has anyone tried this, perhaps in a framework where 1 is always unbalanced?

For context, this is 16+ precision system with a 10-12 NT including 5Ms, so the 1NT rebid here currently shows 13-15 and 5332. I’m willing to raise 1 with 3 and a doubleton if the hand seems more suit oriented, so 1N is pretty much exactly 2533 shape or some NT oriented 35(32)s. This seems awfully specific for the cheapest rebid. If the alternative was having to rebid a 3 card minor over 1 instead, that doesn’t seem so different than how the same hand responds after a forcing NT response - not ideal, but not a huge issue or at least one I’m used to.

I have lots of ideas for how to use the “free” 1N rebid, like for showing extra strength or transfers or whatnot. here is a transfer version:

1 -1:

1N clubs, or balanced with extras (intended as forcing, but this is precision). over a 2C pref, bid again with a 35(32) hand
2 4+ diamonds
2 6+ hearts
2 minimum 3 card spade raise (NF)
2 minimum 4 card spade raise

Alternatively, 1N could show any hand with extra strength (13-15 here), so the natural rebids of 2 of a suit would be less forward going (catering to our potentially light openers).

1-1-1N any maximum, not super distributional (ie a good 5/5 might jump to 3m). Then,

2 weak, pass or correct, club preference over hearts. If balanced, opener bids 2S with 3 (to play the 4-3) or else passes with 2533.
2 invitational+ ask, Gazelli style continuations.
2 weak, preference
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#2 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-February-28, 09:51

https://www.bridgeba...rreled-invites/
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#3 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-February-28, 11:19

I know G.U.S. uses structured responses after a 1 opener. In that system, 1/1 is always unbalanced.

1-1= less than 3 hearts, 0-4 spades, F1
then 1N= 4 spades/5 hearts and 2= 4 spades/6 hearts, good hand

1-1N= 5 spades, F1

They call it the Kaplan Interchange, which, I believe, is the same as Gazilli.
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#4 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2019-February-28, 12:09

View PostHardVector, on 2019-February-28, 11:19, said:

They call it the Kaplan Interchange, which, I believe, is the same as Granvzillei.

FYP
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#5 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2019-February-28, 14:42

If you want something simpler than a relay based structure that just changes openers rebids: https://bridgewinner...ng-after-1h-1s/
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#6 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2019-March-01, 00:20

Thanks Adam, that looks perfect. Solves the 3-vs-4 card raise issue, as well as getting a cheap force with 2 over 1N showing diamonds instead of 3 over 2 natural. If I get ambitious, I may eventually try the Gazelli version to split up my light opener ranges, but the basic structure seems quite playable and I’ll start with that.
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#7 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2019-March-04, 02:14

We've played awm's Zirconia for a while with nice results. Our 1M openings are limited to about 11-16. The hands in this range which we thought caused the most problems for responder is when opener has 6+ hearts, since rebidding 2H is pretty wide of a range and responder might be interested in game with 2-card support. We used to play this Zirconia variant:

1H-1S;
1NT = Diamonds or 2-5-3-3.
2C = 6+ hearts. Now 2D is a positive asking bid.
2D = 3 card raise.
2H = 4+ clubs and 5 hearts.
2S = 4 card raise.

However the 2H rebid is kind of ugly, so we recently changed it to this:

1H-1S;
1NT = Diamonds or 2-5-3-3 or minimum with 6H.
2C = Natural.
2D = 3 card raise.
2H = Extras with 6H.
2S = 4 card raise.
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#8 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-March-04, 15:54

View PostKungsgeten, on 2019-March-04, 02:14, said:

We've played awm's Zirconia for a while with nice results. Our 1M openings are limited to about 11-16. The hands in this range which we thought caused the most problems for responder is when opener has 6+ hearts, since rebidding 2H is pretty wide of a range and responder might be interested in game with 2-card support. We used to play this Zirconia variant:

1H-1S;
1NT = Diamonds or 2-5-3-3.
2C = 6+ hearts. Now 2D is a positive asking bid.
2D = 3 card raise.
2H = 4+ clubs and 5 hearts.
2S = 4 card raise.

However the 2H rebid is kind of ugly, so we recently changed it to this:

1H-1S;
1NT = Diamonds or 2-5-3-3 or minimum with 6H.
2C = Natural.
2D = 3 card raise.
2H = Extras with 6H.
2S = 4 card raise.


I think it's a very bad trade separating minimums from maximums with 6H vs separating 6H from diamonds. One example would be if responder wants to strongly raise diamonds but opener has a minimum with only long hearts.

Zirconia is good but 2-barreled invites is better. Yes, it requires relays but continuations are so much better when you first separate min/light invite from stronger invite from GF. It also has the 2M-1 strong raise which is more or less where the space savings (from relays) is applied.
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#9 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2019-March-04, 16:22

View Poststraube, on 2019-March-04, 15:54, said:

I think it's a very bad trade separating minimums from maximums with 6H vs separating 6H from diamonds. One example would be if responder wants to strongly raise diamonds but opener has a minimum with only long hearts.

I tnink it's a huge improvement. When do you want to raise diamonds?

Traditionally, 3 over 1-1; 2 is an invitational raise, but here you have the 2 relay over 1N available on all INV hands, don't you? And in standard 2/1, 3 over 1-1; 2 is just a courtesy raise, which you don't need because Opener is free to bid again over 1-1; 1N-2.
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#10 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-March-04, 16:37

OK. I'll keep an open mind. Here's IMprecision continuations...

"When opener rebids 1NT or 2♣, the lowest bid is artificial and asks opener’s strength. This bid is
usually made on invitational hands. Opener makes the lowest step with a minimum (8-12), the next step
with a max (12-15), and any higher bid to show a super-max (i.e. 14-15 hcp and extra shape). Responder’s
minimum continuations tend to show “bad” invites whereas 2NT and any maximum continuation tend to
show “good” invites. Rebidding the “fourth suit” in these auctions serves as a stopper ask.
Responder’s direct 2NT or jumps to the three level after opener’s 1NT or 2♣ rebid are forcing and
natural. The auction 1♥-1♠-2♣-3♣ (not a jump) shows specifically a good invite with clubs (bad invite
goes through 2♦ and rebids 3♣)."

So 1H-1S, 1N-3D as GF raise of diamonds is a bit uncertain when opener may not have any diamonds.

1H-1S, 1N-2C where 2C is at least a light invite and artificial....
.....2D-min
.....2H-max
.....etc-super-max, GF

needs a rewrite if 2D includes weak with 6H because opener can't be dropped in diamonds any more.
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#11 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2019-March-04, 18:30

I agree that it’s useful to separate min with hearts from max with hearts. In general I prefer to use 2-level bids to handle this; in IMPrecision we use 1M=9-15 but we include 9-11 one suited hands in 2M so the opening is 12-15 when one suited. This helps make the relay structure and double barreled invites work as well. Playing more sound openings I’ve been using 2M=10-13 one suited (multi handles the weak twos) and again 1M is 11-20 but 14-20 if one suited.

Anyway, if you can’t do this with ranges I’d suggest it’s a bit better to use:

1nt = 2533 or diamonds or 14+ one suited
2h = 11-13 one suited

By lumping the stronger hand with 1nt the auction becomes sort of Gazzilli like. You can do something like:

2c = 4th suit gf
2else less than inv (opener bids 2h over 2D with 14-16 one suited)
Others = Natural inv with 3d a “raise” but openers 3h over this accepts game and shows 6h (maybe not 3+d)

Or you can use:
2c = inv or stopper ask (then 2D is min 3+d and all others max and as natural as possible)
2nt+ GF natural with openers 3h over 3d canceling the diamonds
Adam W. Meyerson
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#12 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-March-04, 19:01

I like switching the strengths of the 6H much better. Does opener have any difficulty with maximums holding 6H/4+D? For example, you don't necessarily want to cancel the diamond message when showing the 6th heart.
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#13 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2019-March-07, 10:55

We thought at first that the 1NT should include the maximum heart hands, since that makes more sense if you're used to playing Gazzilli. Also it makes more sense to put the more common hand (the weaker one) into the less nebulous 2H rebid. If the purpose is to find game towards the strong single-suited hand though, our conclusion was that rebidding 2H with a max is better.

Let's compare:

1H-1S; 1NT = 2-5-3-3 or diamonds or strong hearts (max with 6+H). Now:
2C = Artificial force. Opener rebids 2D with minimum (2-5-3-3 or 4+ diamonds), 2H with the strong hearts, or 2S+ with diamonds and max.
2D = Preference. Opener bids 2H with strong hearts or passes.
2H = Preference. Opener pass?

The problem here is when you're not interested in game vs the diamonds hand, but you are vs the strong heart hand. Then you have to take preference to 2H, and play there, or accept that you'll be in game vs a max diamond hand.

If instead weak hearts is in 1NT:

1H-1S; 1NT = 2-5-3-3 or diamonds or weak hearts (min with 6+H). Now:
2C = Artificial force. Same rebids as above, but 2H is weak hearts.
2D = Preference. Opener bids 2H with weak hearts or passes.
2H = Preference. Opener pass.

To me there's less of a problem. If you want to be in game vs the max diamond hand, you bid 2C. If you want to be in game vs the weak heart hand, you probably want to be vs a max hand with diamonds too.
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#14 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2019-March-07, 11:13

View Poststraube, on 2019-March-04, 19:01, said:

Does opener have any difficulty with maximums holding 6H/4+D?


With 6-4 patterns and a max opener rebids 2H in our system. With 6-4 and minimum he can choose between showing the minor or the sixth heart.

Here's some further details on how we play (might be of interest that we play 1H-2S as natural INV).

1H-1S; 1NT---
2C = INV+.
2red = Preference.
2S = Weak.
2NT = GF, no slam interest.
...3C = 6H and 4C.
...3D = 5-5.
...3H = 6H, not 4C (but may have 4D).
...3NT = None of the above.
3m = GF with 5-5 spades + minor.
3H = GF with 5+S and 3H.
3S = GF with 6+S.

1H-1S; 1NT-2C; 2D (minimum with 3+D)--
2H = To play.
2S = Artificial GF.
...2NT = 2-5-3-3
...3C = 1-5-4-3
...3D = 5-5.
...3H = 6-4, chose to show the diamond suit.
...3S = 2-5-4-2, no club stopper.
...3NT = 2-5-4-2 with club stopper.
2NT = INV.
3C = INV with 4S and 6+C.

1H-1S; 1NT-2C; 2H (minimum with 6+H)--
2S = Artificial GF.
...2NT = No singleton.
...3m = 6-4, chose to not show the minor.
...3H = 6+H and a singleton, 3S asks.
...3S = 6+H and void.
...4m = 6+H and void.
2NT = INV.
3m = INV with 4S and 6+m.
3H = INV.

1H-1S; 2H (max with 6+H, not 3+S)--
2S = Weak.
2NT = Artificial GF.
...3m = 6-4.
...3H = 6+H and singleton, 3S asks.
...3S = 6+H and void.
...3NT = 6+H no suitable shortness.
...4m = 6+H and void.
3m = Nat GF.
3H = INV.
3S = Nat GF.
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