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A Chancy Chimp SB gets shafted

#21 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-February-17, 20:32

View Postpran, on 2019-February-16, 05:48, said:

Have you ever as presumed Dummy faced your cards after your RHO (apparently) made his opening lead without first showing his closing PASS?



Yes, he has, and has also played from dummy when he was declarer in this situation.
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#22 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 07:22

View PostVampyr, on 2019-February-17, 20:32, said:

Yes, he has, and has also played from dummy when he was declarer in this situation.

But in all cases the person in the pass out seat has done something such as "picking up all the cards" to indicate a pass. This did not happen in this case.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason. - barmar
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#23 User is online   pran 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 07:37

View Postlamford, on 2019-February-18, 07:22, said:

But in all cases the person in the pass out seat has done something such as "picking up all the cards" to indicate a pass. This did not happen in this case.

Well, as a director I would rule that this is precisely what happened and I shall require some extremely convincing evidence to rule otherwise.

Presumed declarer's LHO in the pass-out seat making an opening lead when correct procedure is to first produce a closing PASS is IMHO covered by "such as".
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#24 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 08:16

View Postlamford, on 2019-February-15, 17:03, said:

If ChCh had "failed to use a pass card correctly", I would agree with you completely. But there is a requirement for ChCh to act in such a way AND to make a lead, so both are pre-requisites. However there was no "waft", no "sweeping up the cards" - in West's case at least they were still present - and no "touching of a pass card", so there is no provision for the TD to interpret some action as being a pass, as there was no such action.


I presume that the attempted lead was made in the manner described in Law 41 - ChCh first made a faced down lead (Law 41.A) and then after any review of the auction / questions (Law 41.B) ChCh faced the opening lead (Law 41.C). As Lamford is always Scrupulously accurate in his write-ups, I am sure that he would have mentioned if there was a deviation from this procedure.

Some examples of actions that may be deemed by the TD to be a pass are given in the Blue Book (3Z C3): “general ‘waft’ of the hand, tapping cards already there, picking up the cards”, but this list is not intended to be exhaustive. I believe that the director could (and should) deem that the placing of the lead face-down is such an action. Note that this is a separate action from “facing the opening lead”.
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#25 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 10:05

View Postlamford, on 2019-February-18, 07:22, said:

But in all cases the person in the pass out seat has done something such as "picking up all the cards" to indicate a pass.


No.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#26 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 10:18

It seems like the question is whether, when someone fails to follow the rules of the game, the director should exercise his discretion to rule "no harm, no foul". But the director is bound by the laws and regulations in force (Law 81B2) so I don't see how the answer can possibly be other than "no" unless the regulations in force allow him to do so. This might be possible in a club, but it seems to me that most clubs don't publish written regulations on anything, much less something like this. So again, I don't see how the answer can be anything other than "no".
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#27 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 10:29

View PostTramticket, on 2019-February-18, 08:16, said:

I presume that the attempted lead was made in the manner described in Law 41 - ChCh first made a faced down lead (Law 41.A) and then after any review of the auction / questions (Law 41.B) ChCh faced the opening lead (Law 41.C). As Lamford is always Scrupulously accurate in his write-ups, I am sure that he would have mentioned if there was a deviation from this procedure.

The only question that RR ever has about the auction is "what is the contract and who is declarer?", and ChCh was keen to lead quickly in case RR led out of turn, a frequent "habit" of his for which he never seems to get a PP. If ChCh had led face down and then there had been a review of the auction, I would have stated this. So, no, there was no "separate action" of a face-down lead and OO concluded the auction had not ended.
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#28 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 10:32

View Postpran, on 2019-February-18, 07:37, said:

Presumed declarer's LHO in the pass-out seat making an opening lead when correct procedure is to first produce a closing PASS is IMHO covered by "such as".

Quite possibly, but the implied sentence "such as making a faced opening lead AND then making a faced opening lead" would be nonsense even by the WBFLC standards.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason. - barmar
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#29 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 10:34

View Postlamford, on 2019-February-18, 10:29, said:

The only question that RR ever has about the auction is "what is the contract and who is declarer?", and ChCh was keen to lead quickly in case RR led out of turn, a frequent "habit" of his for which he never seems to get a PP. If ChCh had led face down and then there had been a review of the auction, I would have stated this. So, no, there was no "separate action" of a face-down lead and OO concluded the auction had not ended.


So there is another infraction to be considered? And given that this is acknowledged as a frequent habit it would seem that a severe PP should be applied? Maybe similar in magnitude to the IMPs gained on the hand?
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#30 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 10:41

View PostTramticket, on 2019-February-18, 10:34, said:

So there is another infraction to be considered? And given that this is acknowledged as a frequent habit it would seem that a severe PP should be applied? Maybe similar in magnitude to the IMPs gained on the hand?

If you applied a penalty for failure to lead face-down, you would be applying about 6 PPs per round. Asking "Any questions" after an auction like 1NT-3NT and leading face down is often bypassed. And I have NEVER seen a PP given.
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#31 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 10:50

View Postlamford, on 2019-February-18, 10:41, said:

If you applied a penalty for failure to lead face-down, you would be applying about 6 PPs per round. Asking "Any questions" after an auction like 1NT-3NT and leading face down is often bypassed. And I have NEVER seen a PP given.


I'm not proposing that a PP be given for every offence. Just this once should be enough to set an example and remind players of their responsibilities! :)
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#32 User is online   pran 

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Posted 2019-February-18, 17:17

I am still wondering:
What is the players in this club used to about
- The progress and closing of the auction
- How the opening lead is made

and in particular: What deviations from "correct procedures" are commonly experienced?
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#33 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2019-February-19, 08:40

View Postpran, on 2019-February-18, 17:17, said:

I am still wondering:
What is the players in this club used to about
- The progress and closing of the auction
- How the opening lead is made

and in particular: What deviations from "correct procedures" are commonly experienced?

The auction is almost always closed either by a pass card being placed, pointed to or the cards removed. None of that happened here. I invariably adopt the last of these, and both the WBF and EBU indicate that is a completely acceptable surrogate pass. I lead face down if the auction has been more than one bid each but I admit often to leading face up against the auction 1NT-Pass-3NT-All Pass, as the INT bid will have been announced. But always after replacing the cards. As declarer or dummy I usually leave the bidding cards face up, as do others, but not always.
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#34 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-February-19, 09:35

I have looked for, but never found, the rule that says that whatever the rules actually say, players can do whatever they want.
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#35 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-February-19, 10:06

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-February-19, 09:35, said:

I have looked for, but never found, the rule that says that whatever the rules actually say, players can do whatever they want.

By definition, unwritten rules are hard to find. Yet somehow most people seem to "know" them. They get passed on simply by copying what other people do. And most people are cognizant of this, so they don't get OCD about every little detail. It's just a game, not a court of law.

#36 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 07:17

View Postbarmar, on 2019-February-19, 10:06, said:

By definition, unwritten rules are hard to find. Yet somehow most people seem to "know" them. They get passed on simply by copying what other people do. And most people are cognizant of this, so they don't get OCD about every little detail. It's just a game, not a court of law.

SB thinks it is just a court of law, not a game.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason. - barmar
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#37 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 08:24

View Postlamford, on 2019-February-19, 08:40, said:

As declarer or dummy I usually leave the bidding cards face up, as do others, but not always.


I find it curious that declarer and dummy usually leave the bidding cards face up but the defenders do not. What is the logic for this, or how did it come about?

Our regulations say nothing in this respect. In practice all players immediately put the bidding cards away.
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#38 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 09:00

View Postpescetom, on 2019-February-20, 08:24, said:

I find it curious that declarer and dummy usually leave the bidding cards face up but the defenders do not. What is the logic for this, or how did it come about?

Our regulations say nothing in this respect. In practice all players immediately put the bidding cards away.

I think defenders often remove the passes, but leave the auction out if they have made a bid. ChCh has been alleged to have removed his bids if RR is on lead and he doesn't want the suit led, and to have left them there when he does, but with other more attentive partners he has no pattern, so it has been difficult to prove, like most of ChCh's misdemeanours.

With screens the regulation is:
After all four players have had the opportunity to review the auction (equivalent to the right of having the auction restated) the players replace their bidding cards in their respective bidding boxes
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#39 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 09:49

People are weird. I've had RHO dither over what s/he expects to be her final pass (I haven't bid yet, my partner has passed throughout, the auction has reached a high level) by reaching for the bidding box, then tapping the table, then saying "um..." and finally taking out a pass card and putting it on the table. I've had them pull the pass card and hold it in the air, not putting it on the table, because I guess then it would take extra effort to pick it back up. Sheesh. It's not hard, people. Just put the damn pass card on the table like you're supposed to do.
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#40 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 14:37

View Postpescetom, on 2019-February-20, 08:24, said:

I find it curious that declarer and dummy usually leave the bidding cards face up but the defenders do not. What is the logic for this, or how did it come about?

Our regulations say nothing in this respect. In practice all players immediately put the bidding cards away.


The opening leader’s partner may have questions about the auction, which of course he can’t ask until the opening lead is made. This is one of the main reasons or leaving the cards on the table until the OL is faced.

In the US, people actually get indignant if you leave the bidding cards out. I quite enjoy when I, as OL’s partner, have questions and require the ds to be restored.

Another poster mentioned screen regulations. Unfortunately, in my experience if one of the players on the other side of the screen makes the final pass, both players remove their bidding cards from the tray. This is annoying if you wanted to examine the whole auction.
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