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Bid slam after intervention...how?

#1 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 06:25



At IMPs, in a strong room, this hand was played 17 times.

6/6 were bid only 4 times.

Essentially, the object of the exercise is E/W finding their double fit and not a single wasted value in their 27 points.

Over to you.......!

Thanks.

D.

Ps. South's 2 was obviously alerted as weak.
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 07:41

This will be difficult west has no reason to expect K to be worth full weight
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 07:49

Firstly K is wasted, you can make the slam without it.

1-(2)-4 fit makes it easy
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#4 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 08:11

Another way is for responder to start with 3 (GF without spades). I play this as possibly but not necessarily a splinter, but opener doesn't care, he has a powerhouse.
1 (2) 3
4 - 4(too good for 5)
4(ace ask, crucial card ask, whatever, in diamonds) - whatever(1 or 2 keycards depending on whether you have an agreement to count the second suit)
6
The slam may be a bit of a leap in the dark, but responder has made a GF so will have some good cards or good holding apart from his trump K, and he did bid 4 rather than 5.
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#5 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 08:22

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-February-14, 07:49, said:

Firstly K is wasted, you can make the slam without it.

1-(2)-4 fit makes it easy


That's what happened.

I think I should now bid 4, agreeing and showing a control.

Partner now knows that his K is working and we have a double fit. I don't yet know we have a double fit - though if he doesn't have for his free bid of 4, then he must have a shed load of !

Either way, I think that 4 is the best move forward. Not knowing that are safe, I would now expect partner to bid 5, confirming the double fit, when I can bid either slam - though the possible 4/4 in makes it slightly better, I think, using the long for a potential discard.

Whatever you feel about my 4 bid, I made the worst possible bid of 5

Thanks for the replies.

D.
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#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 08:29

View PostDinarius, on 2019-February-14, 08:22, said:

That's what happened.

I think I should now bid 4, agreeing and showing a control.

Partner now knows that his K is working and we have a double fit. I don't yet know we have a double fit - though if he doesn't have for his free bid of 4, then he must have a shed load of !

Either way, I think that 4 is the best move forward. Not knowing that are safe, I would now expect partner to bid 5, confirming the double fit, when I can bid either slam - though the possible 4/4 in makes it slightly better, I think, using the long for a potential discard.

Whatever you feel about my 4 bid, I made the worst possible bid of 5

Thanks for the replies.

D.


I would rather bid 6 than 5, assuming partner has at least 2 spades, all you need is xx, void, Kxxx, KQxxx plus any 2 cards for a slam to be on.
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#7 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 08:41

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-February-14, 08:29, said:

I would rather bid 6 than 5, assuming partner has at least 2 spades, all you need is xx, void, Kxxx, KQxxx plus any 2 cards for a slam to be on.


Yes, you have a point.

Though, if 7 is on, it's a less scientific approach.

I still prefer elaborating on my hand by bidding 4

5 was a terrible bid.

D.
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#8 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 10:53

View PostDinarius, on 2019-February-14, 08:41, said:

Yes, you have a point.

Though, if 7 is on, it's a less scientific approach.

I still prefer elaborating on my hand by bidding 4

5 was a terrible bid.

D.


I agree and 4is good (although not available to us, it asks aces with diamonds agreed, we'd need to bid 4N as a heart cue), was just saying that given a choice between 5 and 6 I'd bid 6.

4 is also sensible and IMO shows a better hand than 5m here.
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#9 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 12:30

There was a time when I would express surprise at posters explaining how they'd reach slam on hands like these, but no longer. I now know that many posters are unable to remain uninfluenced by seeing all 4 hands.

Let's pretend for a moment that West doesn't know what East has. The auction begins (P) 1D (2H) to us and we hold an aceless 12 count with the stiff heart King.

Now, maybe for those posters willing to commit to 5m, their partners promise diamond length. In my preferred style 1D is 4+ (we open 1C with 4=4=3=2), but that is a non-standard, though relatively common, approach and one would expect the OP to tell us if that was what 1D showed.

So partner could be, say, 4=4=3=2, and we are committing to 5m? Really?

I don't mind committing to game. Our choices, after all, are to underbid, significantly, via 3D or to stretch, and at imps it usually pays to stretch. But why rule out 3N?

Give partner some innocuous hand such a QJxx Axx QJxx Ax. Why can't he have that? Anyone think they are making 5D? If your answer is that you play a weak 1N method: great. But why do you think the OP plays it? And even if one does, can't partner hold QJxx Axxx AQJx x?

No, the honest overbid is not 4C or 3H: it is 3C. What's wrong with this, apart from being a slight overbid?

Over 3C, East should splinter. 4S. He has prime values and a great club fit. Now West drives to slam. East can't have no heart control and splinter: West's minors are too good for that.

Now, I recognize that the OP did say that his partner made the fit-jump, so maybe I am being a little unfair. However, I detest the fit-jump. I have no idea why East feels that 3N can not be both superior to 5m and easy to bid after 3C. As it happens, 3C makes slam pretty easy.
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#10 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 13:50

View Postmikeh, on 2019-February-14, 12:30, said:

There was a time when I would express surprise at posters explaining how they'd reach slam on hands like these, but no longer. I now know that many posters are unable to remain uninfluenced by seeing all 4 hands.

Let's pretend for a moment that West doesn't know what East has. The auction begins (P) 1D (2H) to us and we hold an aceless 12 count with the stiff heart King.

Now, maybe for those posters willing to commit to 5m, their partners promise diamond length. In my preferred style 1D is 4+ (we open 1C with 4=4=3=2), but that is a non-standard, though relatively common, approach and one would expect the OP to tell us if that was what 1D showed.

So partner could be, say, 4=4=3=2, and we are committing to 5m? Really?

I don't mind committing to game. Our choices, after all, are to underbid, significantly, via 3D or to stretch, and at imps it usually pays to stretch. But why rule out 3N?

Give partner some innocuous hand such a QJxx Axx QJxx Ax. Why can't he have that? Anyone think they are making 5D? If your answer is that you play a weak 1N method: great. But why do you think the OP plays it? And even if one does, can't partner hold QJxx Axxx AQJx x?

No, the honest overbid is not 4C or 3H: it is 3C. What's wrong with this, apart from being a slight overbid?

Over 3C, East should splinter. 4S. He has prime values and a great club fit. Now West drives to slam. East can't have no heart control and splinter: West's minors are too good for that.

Now, I recognize that the OP did say that his partner made the fit-jump, so maybe I am being a little unfair. However, I detest the fit-jump. I have no idea why East feels that 3N can not be both superior to 5m and easy to bid after 3C. As it happens, 3C makes slam pretty easy.


Some of us don't open 3 card suits and play a weak no trump, and unless the OP states system, we tend to use our own agreements. Yes playing a potentially short diamond and a strong notrump I agree I'm not worth the fit jump.

Agreed partner can have a manky 4441 but that is an unusual hand to hold, and we tend to disregard it most of the time when making the initial decision.
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#11 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-February-14, 18:00

I suspect this has more to do with this question: Did north give south a "courtesy" raise? If yes, I think that is the critical information that would push you to bid more.
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#12 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2019-February-15, 03:22

View Postmikeh, on 2019-February-14, 12:30, said:

Now, maybe for those posters willing to commit to 5m, their partners promise diamond length. In my preferred style 1D is 4+ (we open 1C with 4=4=3=2), but that is a non-standard, though relatively common, approach and one would expect the OP to tell us if that was what 1D showed.


On the contrary, OP would have told you that the opening might have been short, if that was what it was, just like he told you that the bid was weak, and not intermediate or strong. ;)

Ergo, it wasn't.

D.
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#13 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-15, 03:48

View PostDinarius, on 2019-February-15, 03:22, said:

On the contrary, OP would have told you that the opening might have been short, if that was what it was, just like he told you that the bid was weak, and not intermediate or strong. ;)

Ergo, it wasn't.

D.


It is however important to give your NT range as that also has bearing on this, if you know a minimum hand will be unbalanced, that's also useful knowledge
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#14 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2019-February-15, 04:04

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-February-15, 03:48, said:

It is however important to give your NT range as that also has bearing on this, if you know a minimum hand will be unbalanced, that's also useful knowledge


We were playing 15-17NT guaranteeing at least two in each suit.

D.
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#15 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-15, 04:19

View PostDinarius, on 2019-February-15, 04:04, said:

We were playing 15-17NT guaranteeing at least two in each suit.

D.


OK, in that case I'm not sure you're worth the fit jump but it's close.
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#16 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-February-15, 05:56

I must admit that seeing the opening hand, I was assuming my style : 1 guarantees a shortage outside diamonds. Therefore opener is guaranteeing 3 diamonds, and will have 4+ more than 90% of the time, cannot have 5 spades. I am expecting 12+ unlimited,and this includes the 15-17 range. This has a big impact on my choice of responder bid. Given the open, and the overcall, I am worth a strong bid of some sort as I am going for game in a minor.
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#17 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-February-15, 09:19

Sir, sitting West one knows hardly anything of certain about East hand.and hence I personally, with only Kxxx in diamonds won't dream of showing a superfiI,i do not know the value of HK as it will be useful in a NT contract so I shall bid 3Club. With the given hand East will bid 4S showing a good 5+ diamond suit a singleton spade and a strong hand with Club good fit..I feel that this bid will certainly lead to a contract of 6C by whatever method one uses.
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