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Master-mind Mea culpa

Poll: Master-mind (9 member(s) have cast votes)

Over (1C))(Could be short) ??, what do you call?

  1. 2D (Intermediate) (2 votes [22.22%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 22.22%

  2. 3N (natural) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Something else (7 votes [77.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 77.78%

After (1C) 3N (4S) X (P) ?? what do you call?

  1. Pass (9 votes [100.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 100.00%

  2. 4N (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 5D (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Something else (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

After (1C) 3N (4S) X (P) 4N (X) P (P) ??, what do you call?

  1. Pass (1 votes [11.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  2. 5D (8 votes [88.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 88.89%

  3. Something else (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 13:50

Questions
1. Over(1)(Could be short), what do you call?
- 2 = Intermediate?
- 3N = NAT or
- Something else?
2. After (1) 3N 4 X, what do you call?
- Pass,
- 4N (To play)
- 5
- or something else?
3. After (1) 3N 4 X (P) 4N X P P what do you call?
- Pass
- Redouble
- 5?



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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 13:53

I overcall 1 no second choice, too good for 2(int), hoping to be able to bid clubs asking for a stop later.
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#3 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 14:51

I'm with cyberyeti. 2 unless we'd agreed a direct 3 asks for a stopper.

After 4 is doubled, I'm sitting.


After 4 NT is doubled, I'm running to 5 .
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 15:16

Well, I can see where the title came from if we are supposed to have perpetrated that 3N bid. Let's see: we lie about our club holding, we lie about our heart holding, but we at least do have the appropriate pointed suit holdings. They say 2 out of 3 ain't bad...if only we had 2 out of 3 and not 2 out of 4.

What the hurry was, to grab 3N, escapes me completely. I assume that we don't care about partner, and that we prefer to make all the decisions, no matter how foolish they may be.

Having misled partner about our hand, we had to decide what to do after partner innocently doubled a game. I think it fair to say that the 4S call, and the double, confirms that North did not open a short club, which makes bidding 4N even more bizarre than our decision to gamble that they couldn't run clubs.

In addition, if we can make 4N, partner might have chosen to bid it. When he doubled, either he has 4S utterly destroyed, so at least 500, or he thinks that we can't make 4N. Given my hand, I'd agree with that last part (and disagree with the first, but I still think we would go plus), so I'd gamble the pass: I do rate to take at least 2 tricks, after all, which may turn out to be as many as I was taking in 3N,

3N was masterminding: 4N was masterminding to an even greater degree.

Now what? It probably doesn't matter: the doubling cube is out on the table and will be rolled again no matter what I do. The only question is whether they may, through thinking I have a 3N bid, leak a trick or two on defence to 4N, since they are almost surely not leaking a trick against 5D.

I can, barely, imagine that I might fool around, in a casual game with a partner able to take a joke, and bid 3N, but the idea of then bidding 4N makes me ill. So, it is impossible to know what I'd do now, other than throw up. I guess pass just because I want the auction to end.

I've once in a while had the pleasure of being in the opponents' seats when a fiasco has happened, and we get to start doubling. The more times we get to double the better it feels. I don't want my opps to have that feeling. Now, if I thought for a moment that 5D was significantly better than 4N, I'd bid it, but it's a guess and probably not much different. Heck, maybe partner is Q10xx Qx xx Jxxxx. I can't get back to 4S doubled, but 4N is better than 5D
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#5 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 18:30

A bit late to post hands from the Christmas party!

I over-call 1D. If I want to gamble I over-call 3C. It wouldn't cross my mind to bid 3NT.
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#6 User is online   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-February-07, 14:58

I thought 3C was meant to show a hand like this (running minor, need a club stop). Perhaps is less clear after a short club.

I would pass 4SX.

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#7 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-February-07, 18:08

1d p 5d and if you quit playing with bot partners you wont have to see these kinds of sequences:)
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-February-07, 18:28


Full deal on left.
Defending 4X would have been a great success.
4NX-3 -500 cost 15 X-imps.
West led a and told his partner "Never criticize my leads again".
3 Souths made 3N with an overtrick on a non- lead.
4 North-Souths played 3N-2, undoubled.
1 South made a partscore.
game and slam failed, undoubled.

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#9 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2019-February-07, 18:38

4NT may be the worst bid I've ever seen by a human on this forum.
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#10 User is online   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-February-08, 00:07

View Postneilkaz, on 2019-February-07, 18:38, said:

4NT may be the worst bid I've ever seen by a human on this forum.


Clearly you didn't see this wonderful sequence my partner once perpetrated. (Sorry to bring it up again, partner.)

ahydra
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#11 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-February-08, 10:27

View Postneilkaz, on 2019-February-07, 18:38, said:

4NT may be the worst bid I've ever seen by a human on this forum.


The double of 4 has to be a business double for penalties. The given hand rates to have at least 2 tricks toward that set, and, maybe even 3 tricks on a good day. So, pass rates to get you a positive result. The only reason to bid on would be if you felt that a 400 point game would get you a better result. But there's no way to know that from this hand. So this looks like a trust your partner and take your positive hand.
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-February-08, 11:17

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-February-08, 10:27, said:

The double of 4 has to be a business double for penalties. The given hand rates to have at least 2 tricks toward that set, and, maybe even 3 tricks on a good day. So, pass rates to get you a positive result. The only reason to bid on would be if you felt that a 400 point game would get you a better result. But there's no way to know that from this hand. So this looks like a trust your partner and take your positive hand.

Your partner heard you bid 3N, and still opted for the penalty double. You have less than 3N showed. Partner felt that defending was better than declaring and you have no reason to overrule him. Now, had you, for example, perpetrated your 3N on x Ax AKQJxxxx Ax, you'd have reason to think 4N is likely better. You have 10 tricks in your own hand and can count on partner to stop spades. Meanwhile, your extra diamond length is a negative defensive factor. 4S still rates to go down, but 500 is perhaps unlikely.

In other words, when one pulls to 4N is has to be for a positive reason (4N is going to make and has a good chance of being a bigger plus than does defence). On this hand, 4N was a panic move (at least it looks that way to me).

While I don't for a moment condone the grotesque 3N, the main lesson here is that one stays stuck, or one does not change horses in mid-stream. We decided to tell partner we had a 3N bid. He has now doubled them. We have to stay with what we rode in on: and stick it out in 4S doubled. Sometimes, as here, partner has his double, and sometimes he doesn't. However, my experience, both as a player and a reader of many tournament write-ups, is that zigging then zagging tends to make matters worse than simply zigging does. Plus, an understanding partner is more likely to accept our apology if 4S makes than he is to forgive us for pulling when 4N goes for a number.
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#13 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-February-08, 14:21

View Postahydra, on 2019-February-07, 14:58, said:

I thought 3C was meant to show a hand like this (running minor, need a club stop). Perhaps is less clear after a short club. I would pass 4SX.

I concede that my 4N bid was even worse than my 3N bid
Over RHO's 1 opener, I feel that a 3 overcall is reasonable -- as rmnka447, tramticket, and ahydra recommend. I worried whether we played that convention, so I gambled 3N instead. Afterwards, partner confirmed that the stop-asking jump-cue is not among our agreements.

How do you reply to a stop-asking jump-cue. e.g. (1) 3 (P) ?? I like...
  • 3 (cheaper/other minor) = NEG No stop, weak.
  • 3/3 = (unbid majors) NAT No stop, Good 5+ suit, suggesting a major contract.
  • 3N = NAT. Stop in opponent's suit.
  • 4 = (cue/more expensive minor) = ART. No stop, Good hand.

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#14 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-February-08, 17:40

View Postmikeh, on 2019-February-08, 11:17, said:





Exactly, to all the points in your full comment. Just a couple related thoughts.

If 4 x made because partner depended that my 3 NT bid was what it was supposed to have been, then I'd be ready to profusely apologize.

You can't know what's happening elsewhere to determine the IMP swing be it at the other table or across some portion of the field. Who knows. If 4 x makes maybe your teammates are in 4 undoubled and you're about -200 for a smaller IMP loss.

Trust your judgment (i.e. ride the horse that brought you) is great advice. Make up calls made because you overbid or misbid rarely turn out well.
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