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Escape from the frying-pan Mea culpa

Poll: Escape from the frying-pan (7 member(s) have cast votes)

After 1N (X)(15+ HCP) ??, Your call?

  1. Pass (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. XX showing 5+ suit (3 votes [42.86%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.86%

  3. 2C showing clubs and aniother (4 votes [57.14%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 57.14%

  4. Something else (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

After 1N (X) 2C (P)(F1) 2D(P)(F1)??, your call

  1. Pass (1 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  2. 2H = NAT (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 2S = NAT (6 votes [85.71%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 85.71%

  4. Something else (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 13:00


Questions
1. After 1N (X), should you Pass, or XX to show a 5+ suit, or bid 2 showing s and another?
2. After 1N (X) 2 (P) 2 (P), should you pass or bid 2 or bid 2?

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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 14:30

As a matter of routine, I remove to the 5 card minor unless I think 2m and 2M might be making.
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#3 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 14:38

It seems like your methods are:

Pass - strongest action
XX - runout with 5 card suit
2 of a suit - runout with that suit and another - both likely 4 card suits.

In that case:

Q1: I'm redoubling to show the 5 card suit. A 5-2 fit is likely to play better than any 4-3 fit we might find. If South was just short of a double and passed, you'd transfer with this hand if you had 5 baby cards in a major instead of . So redoubling here is just a variation of that.


Q2: 2 - partner has run from , so should have a doubleton and likely 3+ in the other suits. 2 on a 4-3 fit might not ideal, but bidding 2 and playing in a 3-3 fit isn't likely to be better especially if partner actually has 4 .
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#4 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 15:30

If you want to know what people would choose as their initial action, you should post it as a problem over the initial double. By showing the rest of the auction, including the penalty pass of the double of 2S, you bias the audience.

My own thoughts, subject that bias and trying to account for it, would be to bid 2C, which has several ways to win, as opposed to trying to get out in 2C, which has only 1 way to win.

2C can win when partner can pass clubs.

It can win if he pulls to 2H, admittedly unlikely since you might have minors, but maybe he is 3=5=3=2 and is prepared to take a shot. Obviously this requires that such is acceptable for 1N.

It wins when he has spades

It wins if LHO has a red suit call over 2C (because he can't pass and wait to see what happens, as he can if we redouble).

Redoubling wins when we belong in 2C. Note that LHO may rescue us from a bad 2C contract by bidding in 4th seat after we pass opener's forced 2C, but this isn't a win, since that hand presumably bids over an immediate 2C.

It's not as if we are scrambling in a hopeless position, aiming to avoid an inevitable large minus. I've seen partners open a 14-16 1N on KJxx KQxx Jxx Ax as an example of a minimum where I think the opps would far prefer to defend 2C than 2S, let alone 2S x'd. Yes, I know that he can't have that at the end of this auction, but I am discussing our approach over the initial double.
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#5 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 18:06

IMPs or MPs?

As a general principal, I (almost) always rescue to a five-card suit. But 2S at IMPs is interesting because there is an upside if we make. Opps will be reluctant to make a marginal double.

I redouble at pairs, 2C at IMPs.
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#6 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 18:36

I should also have mentioned that a useful adjunct to playing 2C as clubs and a higher is that opener should not run unless he has at least as good a holding in each of the other 3 suits. With, say, 2=4=4=3, he should pass, since he cannot handle a 4=4 or 4=5 black hand. So when partner pulls 2C to 2D, he will have at least 3 spades. Thus there is no way one should run from 2S to 3C. On a bad day one is running from a 4-4 fit to a 5-2 (yes, I saw the penalty pass but he would pass with many 4 card spade suits). At best one is running from a 2-level 4-3 to a 3 level 5-3.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-February-06, 19:31

2 is better than redouble when opener is 4=3=3=3, 4=4=3=2, 5=3=3=2 or 4=3=4=2.

rdbl is better when opener is 3=4=4=2, 3=4=3=3 or 3=3=4=3.

In all other situations it doesn't matter since we will play 2 either way.

2 wrongsides the contract, but then again, as Mike points out, it puts opponents under more pressure so they are more likely to rescue us. If they need to double 2 for penalties, it is easier for them to do so if we take the slow route, assuming that they have good agreements.

So it's close. In practice I wouldn't think much about it but just make use the agreed upon system, although I might think about it if the spade suit was very poor and the club suit quite good.

As Mike says, you get less bias if you ask the question without providing the rest of the auction.

Over 2 I obviously bid spades. Opener should not have a doubleton spades. I think that even with 2=4=5=2 he should just pass the 2 bid, intending to run to diamonds if it gets doubled. This is especially clear against opponents who (such as here) play forcing passes in this situation.
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#8 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2019-February-07, 04:44

Hi,

I show my 5 carder, and after that I am done with the auction.
Having decided, that I show my 2-suiter, which is reasonable, I bid my 2nd suit,
after partner went searching.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#9 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-February-07, 16:06

On the X, 2C and 2S could be winning contracts. Not possible to know which one, but statistically, C rate to play better more often. And C also have the merit that opponents can compete more easily in them, and it is probably safer to be on defense (I ruff D in a M contract, they could run into a nasty trump break if they play D).
So I’d tend to just introduce my C suit. But I would never blame partner to show a 2-suiter. When partner starts to scramble, I see no reason now to not show my 2nd suit.
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#10 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-February-07, 17:32

PASS and I do not expect this to be popular. We are in trouble and maybe just maybe they cant x 2d. There is plenty of time to bid
2s later or xx to show tolerance for both majors if 2d is x. We do not know where our best fit is and pass is the best way to find
it and possibly escape disaster.
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#11 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-February-07, 17:49


Thank you for the interesting and instructive comments
On the left is the full deal.
As Cyberyeti, Rmnka447, TramTicket, and PMarlow recommend, redouble showing a 5 card suit would have worked better.
My partner agrees with MikeH that he should not voluntarily remove my actual 2 bid without at least 3 cards in each higher suit.
(If 2 is doubled, he can then bid 2).
If I had passed 2, we would have played there 1-down, undoubled.
2X was 3-down for -500 and -13 X-imps :(

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#12 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-February-07, 17:58

View Postnige1, on 2019-February-07, 17:49, said:


Thank you for the interesting and instructive comments
On the left is the full deal.
As Cyberyeti, Rmnkaa47, TramTicket, and PMarlow recommend, redouble showing a 5 card suit would have worked better.
My partner agrees with MikeH that he should not voluntarily remove my actual 2 bid without at least 3 cards in each higher suit.
(If 2 is doubled, he can then bid 2).
If I had passed 2, we would have played there 1-down, undoubled.
2X was 3-down for -500 and -13 X-imps :(


I have a partner who likes to occasionally open 1N with a 6 card minor. I never do. This sort of result is not the main reason for my refusal to hide a 6 card suit, but it is the sort of result that I think one deserves. My main reason is that it is virtually impossible to bid to good minor suit contracts or good slams in the minor or 6N (using the long suit to allow partner with Hxx or better to count tricks. Now, I play primarily imps, where playing 5D, making, is no crime.
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#13 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-February-07, 18:10

If you often open 1NT with two doubletons, this thread is an important discussion to have.

Maybe you should play a run-out method that allows you to show specifically which of the two suits is the 5-card suit. You can achieve this by playing pass by responder forcing opener to redouble. Or by agreeing only to show 5-4 as 2-suiters if (say) the higher ranking suit is 5+.

Alternatively, opener will have to pass the 2 bid if he has two doubletons.
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