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inverted minor raise with 4cM

#1 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 08:10

I recently had this hand and my Partner in South opened 1 Diamond.



Scoring MPs
5CM, Strong NT, 5532, Diamonds always 4+ unless exactly 4432

We had a lively discussion afterwards whether 2 or 1 was the rigth call, your opinion?

Regards
JW
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 08:23

For us 2 without thinking about it, but unless you've agreed that your inverts can include a 4M, you need to respond 1. Not that it can't go wrong (playing 3N opposite a singleton when 5 or even 6 diamonds makes), but if you're not going to be able to persuade partner later that you have 4 hearts when he's 4432 or 2443 with good hearts, you're going to be headed for a bad board.
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#3 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 08:28

Hi,

you can play inv. minor raises not denying a 4cM, but you would need add. agreements to find
the 44 fit.
With the given hand, I am happy to bid 1H, it keeps the bidding low and partner has. max.
room to describe his hand.
The fact that hearts is an empty suit has pro and cons, I would not worry too much about it.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#4 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 08:41

In my opinion, if you want your forcing raise to be able to include a four-card major, it is best to do it in the context of a weak NT system or have the raise as game-forcing. This is so that the sequence 1m-2m-2NT is forcing and you can unravel your balanced and unbalanced hands while not missing a 4-4 major fit.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 09:03

View Postgordontd, on 2019-January-25, 08:41, said:

In my opinion, if you want your forcing raise to be able to include a four-card major, it is best to do it in the context of a weak NT system or have the raise as game-forcing. This is so that the sequence 1m-2m-2NT is forcing and you can unravel your balanced and unbalanced hands while not missing a 4-4 major fit.


This coincides pretty much exactly with my view about diamonds, you can use 2 as the enquiry over an inverted 2 and maybe sort it out, but it's more difficult in the context of a possibly short club.
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#6 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 09:09

I can bypass a 4 card major and in this hand I will do that and bid 2d because no matter the final contract it is probably better played from partner's side of the table or there is no difference. I prefer to not bypass a 4 card major but here rightsiding any final contract seems to take precedence.
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#7 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 09:40


JanisW writes 'Scoring MPs. 5CM, Strong NT, 5532, Diamonds always 4+ unless exactly 4432. We had a lively discussion afterwards whether 2 or 1 was the rigth call, your opinion?;
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


I like to agree that a minor-raise can include a 4-card major.
Even if you wouldn't normally suppress a 4-card major, however, there are arguments for doing so with this 14 HCP hand e.g..
1. 3N might play better than a 4-4 fit, with such poor trumps. For instance, partner might have K x x x
2. It is even worse if partner has slam ambitions. Reese warned against bidding poor suits in slam auctions,

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#8 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 10:06

An interesting and related question is whether the auction 1, 3 (playing inverted minors) can have an undisclosed major on the side.

We will sometimes suppress a major (e.g. with a 6m4M and a very weak hand). Again, system matters - we play a weak NT and a four-card major system where we prioritise opening the major with 4M4m and our 1m opening will often be a five-card suit.
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#9 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2019-January-26, 04:18

I would bid 1 unless my diamond holding was KQT9 or better. But then I prefer to use inverted minors forcing to game. This is due to the extreme inaccuracy of this part of 2/1.

You are well placed after 1 -1 to any response here.
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#10 User is offline   nudnikbp 

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Posted 2019-January-26, 11:58

Playing with the robots, 1H seems normal.
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#11 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-January-26, 14:08

1H seems normal to me, even if you have an agreement that an inverted 2m bid can include a four-card major. 2m suggests (A) we might want to play in the minor and (B) we might want to look for NT stoppers). Here, you probably don't want to play in diamonds (if partner rebids them, there are ways to show support later), and you have NT stops in the blacks. It looks like the main question is whether you are going to want to play H or NT. 1H seems normal, and indeed, I would bid 3NT before I would bid 2d.
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#12 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-January-26, 15:53

1 seems normal with only 4 . But then again, I don't usually make inverted bids with 4cM.

And if partner bids 1 NT you can jump to 3 NT and often discourage a killing lead.

BTW, for those who play you can bid 2 with a 4 card major what does 2 show? Stopper? Suit?
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-January-26, 16:12

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-January-26, 15:53, said:

1 seems normal with only 4 . But then again, I don't usually make inverted bids with 4cM.

And if partner bids 1 NT you can jump to 3 NT and often discourage a killing lead.

BTW, for those who play you can bid 2 with a 4 card major what does 2 show? Stopper? Suit?


For us suit over 2, suit and very minimum over inverted 2 (better goes thru an artificial 2).
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#14 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2019-January-26, 18:29

View PostJanisW, on 2019-January-25, 08:10, said:

I recently had this hand and my Partner in South opened 1 Diamond.



Scoring MPs
5CM, Strong NT, 5532, Diamonds always 4+ unless exactly 4432

We had a lively discussion afterwards whether 2 or 1 was the rigth call, your opinion?

Regards
JW

In reading a book by William Root-"Modern Bridge Conventions", he strongly suggests that when you do an inverted minor raise, you do not have a 4 card major. So in bidding 1, pass, 2, or 1, pass, 2, you deny holding a 4 card major.
So in this example, I would bid 1. The fact that your major is weak does not matter.

This is similar to responding 1NT to one of a minor-it tends to deny a 4 card major.
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#15 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-January-26, 20:07

Sir, since the 1D opening can be on a three carder suit if the hand is 4432,it is better to respond a natural 1H.For bidding an inverted 2D on this hand the diamond suit is not good and NORMALLY it denies a four card major.I fully agree with those who suggest that the heart suit is too miserable to be bid but then it will mean impossible to bid such a hand unless one finds an artificial bid of 1S as the suit is good enough even though 3 carded.For me the response is 1 HEART.
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#16 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-January-27, 00:23

View PostRD350LC, on 2019-January-26, 18:29, said:

In reading a book by William Root-"Modern Bridge Conventions",


Do remember that that book was published in 1981, and it wasn't exactly cutting edge *then*.
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#17 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2019-January-27, 07:29



Thank you for your input. How would you've bid it?
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#18 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-January-27, 09:20

View PostJanisW, on 2019-January-27, 07:29, said:



Thank you for your input. How would you've bid it?

Sir, we would have bid 1D-1H-2C-3NT.We shall certainly not bid 2S over 2C as we are not interested in finding a 3 card heart fit after opener has shown a normal opening hand and we do not wish to play in 5D.
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#19 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-January-27, 09:49

View PostJanisW, on 2019-January-27, 07:29, said:



Thank you for your input. How would you've bid it?


1-1-2-2 and now it gets murky, we would not bid 3N over 2, it's embarrassing when partner has xx, x, AKxxx, Axxxx when you go off in 3N with 6 excellent.

Over 2 S either semi lies and bids 2N which almost marks the stiff heart, now you play 5 or possibly 6 if N believes S has Q, or S bids a nothing to say 3, now 3N or 5 are both in the frame.

Using our own system - 1-2-3-3(stop, no stop, partner can't have 4M so no need to bid hearts)- and now we definitely play diamonds but not clear if 5 or 6
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#20 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-January-27, 13:28

View PostJanisW, on 2019-January-27, 07:29, said:



Thank you for your input. How would you've bid it?



1d
2d for reasons discussed above invite +
3c denies as much as a major suit stopper/4 card suit does not promise extra values
3s spade stop (could be 4) problem with hearts for NT extra values
4h short suit asking how good partner is. Opposite a known heart problem this hand has improved enough to force to 5m
4s LTTC 14 15 useful HCP no heart ace just short of enough values to bid slam == 5c would have been a hand with the heart ace not as good
w/o significant extra values (probably non existent since 4n could have been chosen instead) 5d no heart ace max 13 HCP outside hearts.
4n RKC
5s
6d


responder would have downgraded the spade Q once opener is known to be long in the minors (no 4+ spaded short hearts)
and bid 5d instead of 4s
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