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One suit Capp or two (or preempt)

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2003-May-05, 15:02

You hold the following 2-7-4-0 hand at imps, neither side vul.

S-74
H-QT98542
D-AQ72
C-void

Bidding

We-No-Ea-You            
P-- P---1N---- ?

1NT was "weak"

Playing Cappelletti, do you show a one suiter or a two suiter (that is what do you bid) and why? (this is a question for cappelletti players, not an attempt to discuss the merits of Capp versus other defenses to 1NT).
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Posted 2003-May-06, 07:05

S-74
H-QT98542
D-AQ72
C-void

I must be insane, because here I am answering my own question. But I was interested in peoples comments, and having gotten none, I thought I would rephase the issue and give my view. Normally I play Woolsey or DONT, but over weak notrump, I play Capp. Since I see very little weak NT, I have few chances to practice Capp.

After 2 passes and a weak NT on my right, I know the points are roughly spread equal around the table. I think this 7-4 hand is really shaped primarily as a one suiter (yes, AQxx is a real suit). So showing a one suited hand with a 2CLUB seems right on hand shape. But I have a club void, and their best fit is likely in clubs, and they have at least half the deck in hcp. If I bid an artificial 2CLUBS to show clubs, surely West is likely to double to show clubs. This argues against showing a one suit hand, and instead showing either two suits (minor and major) with a 2H bid or jump to 3H preemptively.

So my question was.

1) Would you generally treat a 7-4 hand as one suiter or two suiter. If you always treat as two suiter, no problem, you bid 2H. But if you generally treat this type of hand as a one suiter, with a void specifically in the club suit....  
2) Would you now treat this as a one suiter.

3) Finally, would you bid 3H rather than 2C or 2H and thus are wondering why in the world I am asking the question in the first place?  

In fact, at the table I showed this hand as a two suiter.

Ben
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#3 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-May-06, 14:07

Haven't responded because I don't like nor play Cappelletti. The given hand is one reason I dislike it, particularly against a weak NT incidentally. If you bid 2C to show a s/s and lho bids 2S, what are you going to do? You really are not good enough to bid 3H, and you cannot bid 3D as this then shows a D s/s. I strongly believe that against a wnt in particular, it is vitally important to be able to show your M immediately. Anyway, this thread is not a discussion about the merits or otherwise of C.

Fwiw- I would still treat this as a s/s if forced to play C. Why? Because if you are "going to go anywhere" with the hand, it will be in H. Your hand is too weak and skewed to suggest that NT might be a possible contract. As the NT opening is on my right, I will assume, quite possibly erroneously, that the DQ is well placed. It is Pd's H holding that is the key to the hand. If after 2C 2D 2H he can find a raise - unlikely as it is, I would bid 4 at imps and pass at mp. One further question - is 2C categorically forcing? (I know that some pairs play it as nf because "You cant have a good hand pd, you didn't X and I have 6 decent C". I don't want pd passing with kj to 6

I think this is an ugly hand for your methods. Personally I would much rather bid an immediate 2H if that were available. If opps came in with 2S over this, I MIGHT compete with 3D nv at mp only, depends on opps.
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#4 User is offline   LukeG 

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Posted 2003-May-06, 15:18

Quote

If you bid 2C to show a s/s and lho bids 2S, what are you going to do? You really are not good enough to bid 3H


I see if differentlly.  If you decide to bid 2C and LHO bids 2S, you MUST bid 3H.  Game chances are too good to go quietly.  You might make 4H opposite as little as AKx of hearts and a doubleton diamond.

Of course, if you knew that LHO was going to bid 2S passed back to you, you would start with 2H.  After 1NT-2H-2S-p-p, I play that 2NT shows 6-4 (partner's 3C is then P/C) and that 3C/3D show 5-5.  After being burned a few times, I tend not to overcall 2H/2S with only four cards in the major.
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#5 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-May-06, 15:29

"After 1NT-2H-2S-p-p, I play that 2NT shows 6-4 (partner's 3C is then P/C) and that 3C/3D show 5-5.  After being burned a few times, I tend not to overcall 2H/2S with only four cards in the major. "

Presumably you mean 6M-4m? Playing 2NT here to show this hand type is useful.

Don't understand the last comment; who has mentioned overcalling 1NT with 2H/S on a 4 card suit? Such an action seems lunacy to me. If you mean you wouldn't bid say 2C/D to show H and another or similar, with only 4 in the M and a longer m, then I disagree, esp at mps, but I don't think this is what you mean, is it?

Incidentally to bid 3H after 2S is passed back to you is far too dangerous to contemplate and really should show a far better hand. You are inviting a X with this action - eg my pd and I play that a X by the 2S bidder would show max for the 2S bid and at least Tx in H - iotw a suggestion that ntrumper pass for penalties if suited.
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#6 User is offline   LukeG 

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Posted 2003-May-06, 15:35

My comments were made on the assumption that we were using Capp, in which case the 2H/2S overcall shows a two suiter with the bid major and an unknown minor.
Luke Gillespie
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#7 User is offline   Yzerman 

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Posted 2003-May-06, 16:53

I am a very aggresive bidder and I have learned that being aggresive require the ability to bid two suiters just as that, two suiters.  I am a big advocate of fit finding.  Here is a great example;

This is final round of Swiss team playing for win;

Auction (starting with RHO) -

P-P-1NT-2C-P-2D-P-2S-3C-X

I held;

10x
AJxx
Kxxx
Kxx

I dont like to play penalty doubles in this position vs good opposition hence my double is strictly cooperative, meaning 'whatever reason you had for bidding in this auction please show tell me - and i am willing to defend 3c if that is right'.

My partner had bid 2c capp on a very marginal 6412 hand with KQxxxx  109xx  suits.  Obviously we do very well in heart and the opps scored up 3C doubled.

Even with one long suit, I still maintain its better to bid 2 suiters as 2 suiters.
MAL
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#8 User is offline   Rado 

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Posted 2003-May-07, 01:29

Hi Ben,

1) In my view and experience 7-4 is usually better to be treated as one-suiter (of course sometimes things are changed)
2) see 1
3) I would overcall 3He even direct 4He bid when non-vulnerable worths some merit (putting pressure on opps or biding our game - 2 red kings may produce easy 10 tricks anyway)
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#9 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2003-May-07, 02:49

Hi Ben,

1.I am with Rado and treat 7/4 as one-suiter, even if the second suit is so strong.

2. I don`t play capp against pds 1 NT  8)

3. If I am in the second chair, I would bid 3 or 4 heart.
No need to jump with strong hands and no need to preempt over a weak NT. So, it should be a long suit with some values and wow, that is what I have.

In 4. Chair I maybe would bid 2 Heart. But I doubt, that the bidding ever will be  1 NT pass pass and I have a hand like the one you described.

Kind Regard

Roland
Kind Regards

Roland


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Posted 2003-May-07, 05:47

So far the cappelletti players are falling into one of two groups.

They either treat 7/4 as a one suiter, and unaffected by the club void in what is likely to be a competitive auction, are willing to bid 2C (enticing a suit showing double) and forgoing the "wonder what the minor suit is bid" of 2H.

The two suited camp, lead by yzerman show two suits anyway, so the presences of a club void is of course of no consequences.

Somehow, I thought the presences of a club void might infuence people who treat this as a one suiter to bid 2H and then, if partner makes a move, perhaps rebid 3H (not showing the diamond suit).  In general, I agree with yzerman that two suiters are two suiters, but I have been known to treat 7/4 as one suiters. It really depends upon the hand. But on this hand, I thought more of the 7/4 should be treated as a one suited hand camp would bid 2H to avoid the informative double on a hand were the hcp are roughly divided evenly. Clearly I was wrong about that. Thanks for the input everyone.  
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#11 User is offline   Yzerman 

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Posted 2003-May-07, 07:00

Although, as inquiry says, I lead the "two suiter camp" I will quote the great hrothgar;

YOU MUST REMAIN FLEXIBLE

Sometimes you have to break your own beliefs and make a call that seems the most practical.

On this very hand, depending on version of cappelletti, I would probably bid this as a one suiter in diamonds (hence go against my strong beliefs) because of the weakness of standard cappelletti.  In addition to my strong beliefs of two suiters, I am also an advocate of practicality and making descriptive bids and "false economy" (false economy is the least number of bids to make the most descriptive bid).

Given the problem at hand, in most of my real life partnerships I play a modified version of Capp in which the traditional Capp double is replaced with the following;

5+ card minor AND 4 card major

The bid I just described is the most economical bid I have (also the most practical) if this tool is available to me.  My relatively limited number of years of experience has made me come to the conclusion that a traditional capp X is a crap shoot against a strong NT (you are wagering that your partner has the balance of the +/- 10 hcp remaining in the deck OR a fitting hand with a suit to play in).  This double has a frequency advantage over the traditional double as well.
MAL
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