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Redouble, who should bid?

#1 User is offline   veredk 

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Posted 2019-January-23, 10:27

All vul,
Bidding: pass, 2, DBL, REDBL, pass, pass, ???
What should the original doubler understand from his partner's pass?
Should he bid if his hand is a minimum opening hand and holding a singleton spade?
Thanks
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#2 User is offline   Redbird44 

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Posted 2019-January-23, 11:41

Here is an article of interest to anyone reading this who is unsure of the answer: http://www.tebelius....andard%2033.pdf
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#3 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2019-January-23, 12:09

While pass over a ONE level bid redoubled (e.g. (1s)-dbl-(rdbl)-pass) is usually played as "no preference", not for penalties, I think at higher levels you want to be able to retain a penalty pass. Otherwise you are giving the weak preempter's partner a get out of jail free card when he is looking at a void and anticipating a pass.
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#4 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2019-January-23, 14:12

View PostStephen Tu, on 2019-January-23, 12:09, said:

While pass over a ONE level bid redoubled (e.g. (1s)-dbl-(rdbl)-pass) is usually played as "no preference", not for penalties, I think at higher levels you want to be able to retain a penalty pass. Otherwise you are giving the weak preempter's partner a get out of jail free card when he is looking at a void and anticipating a pass.


Whilst I agree with Stephen in principle, I also think this area of redoubles over two and three level pre-empts should be by agreement or discussed as a partnership. The redouble here by the opponents is primarily for business, although there could be an element of 'pseudo psychic redouble' (my way of putting it) putting pressure on the opposition to either leave it in or find a fit. [The same thing occurs when a weak 1NT opening is doubled and automatically redoubled, and the opponents have to guess whether it is genuine, or some ploy to find an escape fit at the two level].

My thinking is - and there will be plenty that will disagree with me - that if the redouble is for business, it's sort of ludicrous to leave it in as the opponents will rack up a good score if the contract is made. And as Stephen rightly says, it also gives the opponents 'a get out of jail free card' too by having the redouble as 'help' if they need it.

But there again, the partner of the doubler might have such a poor hand, that bidding is hazardous, and the last thing he wants to do is encourage partner by bidding a four card suit with a Yarborough.
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#5 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2019-January-23, 14:30

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But there again, the partner of the doubler might have such a poor hand, that bidding is hazardous, and the last thing he wants to do is encourage partner by bidding a four card suit with a Yarborough.

Why should bidding encourage partner? Even without the redouble partner shouldn't assume values after you takeout his takeout double without jumping (unless playing Lebensohl), so why should he be encouraged after a redouble? He would automatically be less encouraged, I would think.

Lebensohl can still apply in this situation if it is on the card. Or one could agree 2nt as a scramble.

The question is whether it is more important to be able to give choice of 2 4cd suits, be able to show moderate forward going values (but not appropriate to defend or jump), or be able to avoid/punish psychic shenanigans by the opponents. Can probably only accomplish 2 out of the 3.

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#6 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2019-January-24, 14:31

View Postveredk, on 2019-January-23, 10:27, said:

All vul,
Bidding: pass, 2, DBL, REDBL, pass, pass, ???
What should the original doubler understand from his partner's pass?
Should he bid if his hand is a minimum opening hand and holding a singleton spade?
Thanks

In the bidding given I would regard the redouble as for business and ask partner to pass at his next turn
The doublers partner should take out into any 5 card suit even if it's rags



"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster

Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#7 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-January-24, 14:59

I suggest:

Fourth hand runs to hearts if he has them, or five of a minor if he has them, otherwise he passes and then doubler bids a four card minor if he has only one or else, hoping to be understood, bids 2NT when holding 4-4 in the minors.

This assumes that the XX is a strong call that is content to play for 8 tricks in spades, and hopes to punish any run out.
For support of this interpretation of XX:

Maybe Goldman's Aces Scientific is from the stone age, but here is what he says (page 33):
" A redouble shows a strong hand. It suggests that opener make a penalty double, and creates a force to three of opener's original suit."

Thus: After 2S-X-XX the doubling side is in serious trouble and they need to do the best they can to play in an 8 card fit at the 3 level. My suggestion is meant to help them do that.
Note that this would not require a lot of conversation about an infrequent auction. The doubler will pass whatever fourth hand bids, and if fourth hand passes instead of bidding over the XX then doubler can assume his partner does not have four hearts and does not have a five card minor, so it's natural to try as best they can to find a 4-4 minor fit. On occasion, doubler might even have a five card minor. Whew.


If the XX means something other than what Goldman suggests, then we should find out what.

Yes, the copyright on Goldman is 1978. But not everything changes.

Ken
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#8 User is offline   EddyHaskel 

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Posted 2019-January-24, 17:59

In second seat, you can't double first seat opener's weak two spade bid with less than an opener. You had 5 hearts and 11 points. If for some reason you feel you must bid there, just bid your hearts. Responder's redouble is NOT a rescue, it is showing a hand they expect to make at the two level. When advancer passes the xx (showing a weak hand without four hearts or a five card minor), you MUST bid. I realize your discomfort having to bid hearts now at the 3 level with your 11 points, but you made that bed and must lie in it. You passed, they had an easy game hand in spades and you went -2200. Good teaching moment.
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#9 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-January-24, 20:29

I agree with Stephen about retaining a penalty pass, possibly even at the one-level too. Advancer needs to be able to call responder's bluff. Of course, if responder is not bluffing, advancer should run to any sensible suit of his own or bid 2NT as scrambling.

ahydra
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#10 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-January-24, 21:15

Sir,playing with regular partner ?partners one must have already discussed such situations and can bid accordingly.If playing with a strange partner one should see his profile and if it mentions Lebensohl then bid accordingly.If there is no clue in his profile then I feel one should pass with 0 to 6HCP aND bid naturally with 8/10 HCP considering the LTC if one has 4+ card s in the doublers suggested major.With 11+ HCP and 4+cards support one should make aeither a cue bid or any other appropriate bid depending upon the distribution and controls.
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#11 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 00:26

The redouble has to be for business to make. Opener has presumably shown a decent 6 card suit in a one suited hand. Even if responder is void in , pass is probably right as it's unlikely any other suit will play better. Opener likely holds no more than three in a second suit and often a doubleton or less. Opener's values are also unlikely to be useful to a contract in another suit. So, Redouble as a "rescue" bid to escape makes no sense.

Advancer (doubler's partner) needs to assist doubler in getting out of 2 xx. So a pass of the Redouble really suggests no suit preference. So when the Redouble is passed back to Doubler, Doubler has to start scrambling and bid something.
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#12 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 00:59

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So, Redouble as a "rescue" bid to escape ♠ makes no sense.

It makes quite a bit of sense if you know the opponents have no way to show desire to defend 2s-xx, and can force them to rescue you. Rdbl, your opponents escape for you.

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#13 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 08:02

View PostStephen Tu, on 2019-January-25, 00:59, said:

It makes quite a bit of sense if you know the opponents have no way to show desire to defend 2s-xx, and can force them to rescue you. Rdbl, your opponents escape for you.





This "psychic redouble" occurred to me but like any psych it can get tricky. Let's suppose that XX is, by agreement, a strong bid but third hand decides to psych, since if they only play it as a psych then, to the extent "agreed upon psych" means anything at all, it would be alertable.

So what would be an agreement for a strong use of XX? Goldman says, and I think it makes good sense, is that part of the agreement is that it invites opener to hit the run out. After 2S-X-Pass-3 something, opener surely passes either always or perhaps with rare exceptions ( I prefer always). But after 2S-X-XX the Goldman idea is that the opponents cannot play at the 3 level undoubled, so, for example, 2S-X-XX-3D-X is a perfectly possible auction. Opener is saying "ok, maybe we belong in spades, I don't know your hand exactly, but if you have any interest in playing 3DX instead of spades, I'm fine with that". This X of 3D is not possible w/o the XX but very possible with it. Not an auction we want to hear if the XX was a psych.

Having an agreement where XX shows a good hand, forcing to either 3S or a doubled 3 level contract by opponents, but still requiring opener to pass a fourth hand bid regardless of his shape and values is getting pretty close to a concealed agreement to handle a psych.

Personal recollection: Back when I had maybe fifty master points this auction came up: 2S-X-to me. I had learned that "XX was for rescue" so I did it. After the disaster, partner asked, with some exasperation, just what it was that I expected her to do? I decided she was right. The XX is to play, and now the more experienced me thinks using it as a psych gets tricky.
Ken
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#14 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 12:04

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Personal recollection: Back when I had maybe fifty master points this auction came up: 2S-X-to me. I had learned that "XX was for rescue" so I did it. After the disaster, partner asked, with some exasperation, just what it was that I expected her to do? I decided she was right. The XX is to play, and now the more experienced me thinks using it as a psych gets tricky.

But the disaster only happened because the opps knew that passing the redouble was for penalty, no? Doesn't that argue to play the pass of the redouble as penalty?

At MP if you think you are headed for a bad score anyway (perhaps partner is known to be super-aggressive preempter, so perhaps preempting on hands the field isn't), rdbl might be a worthwhile gamble to see if the opponents are on the same page about what a pass should mean. First time no discussion it's a psych no explanations necessary (pretty rare weak 2 bidder going to have right hand to double a runout anyway). Second time you can disclose "good hand or bad hand", opener must pass, I don't see why this would be "concealed agreement" to handle a psych, you have disclosed your agreement so it's not a psych, you are just gambling opponents don't have their agreements solid.
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#15 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 12:05

Agree with Stephen Tu.
After (2) X (XX) ?? Pass should suggest we play for penalties.
Admittedly, in 2 XX, even with 6-0 ior 6-1 fit, opponents might overcome a trump-stack, on pure power.

Nevertheless, especially at unfavorable vulnerability,
  • 2SXX making can be a better score for us than
  • 3any X going for a telephone number,

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#16 User is offline   IGoHomeNow 

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Posted 2019-January-25, 19:41

I expect the redouble MUST be some kind of support or at least values. If it is purely rescue, I expect it should be alerted. With that in mind, it is hard to imagine the partner of the doubler wants to leave it in often enough to play a pass here as "Let's rock!". So...I would assume it is the no preference sort of meaning we are used to seeing over a one level opening bid. On the other hand, I don't think I have EVER seen an auction begin with 2(D,H,S) X XX. Folks usually just raise to make competition harder if they have decent support. Now that I think about it...I don't think I have ever discussed the meaning of XX here with any partner. Redouble for rescue opposite a pre-empt just seems insane. My best guess as to the proper meaning is lead directing. i.e. I have Ax or Kx. With more length, I almost certainly raise.
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#17 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-January-26, 07:58

View PostIGoHomeNow, on 2019-January-25, 19:41, said:

I expect the redouble MUST be some kind of support or at least values. If it is purely rescue, I expect it should be alerted. With that in mind, it is hard to imagine the partner of the doubler wants to leave it in often enough to play a pass here as "Let's rock!". So...I would assume it is the no preference sort of meaning we are used to seeing over a one level opening bid. On the other hand, I don't think I have EVER seen an auction begin with 2(D,H,S) X XX. Folks usually just raise to make competition harder if they have decent support. Now that I think about it...I don't think I have ever discussed the meaning of XX here with any partner. Redouble for rescue opposite a pre-empt just seems insane. My best guess as to the proper meaning is lead directing. i.e. I have Ax or Kx. With more length, I almost certainly raise.



This being I/A (and that describes me) rather than the expert forum, I agree entirely that 2(D,H,S) X XX is rare and probably rare enough so that few I/A players have discussed it either from the redoublers view or from the other side. As mentioned earlier, I once did the XX when I was starting out, intending it as take-out, but afterword I agreed with partner's view that this was, as you put it, insane.

Now as to why one might XX with a strong hand. I got in on the tail end of the online post-mortem of this hand. As I recall (and this is inexact), third hand had a monster including strong three card spade support. And they were vulnerable, so overtricks, and there would definitely be some, would be 400 per. It's true that a doubled 3 level contract by the doubling side was going for a number as well. I can't say I know for sure which was more expensive. Either way it would have used up a couple of car payments. (ok, I'm joking, it wasn't for money.)

If I recall correctly, doubler was 1=5=4=3 and her partner was 3=3=3=4. Doubler's five card heart suit was not all that strong so if she was coming in at all I can understand coming in with X. Venturing 3 !H with something like AJxxx is not attractive. She mentioned in the discussion that there was something to be said for passing. That's up to her, the discussion here is what happens after the X and XX. After two passes, can she try 3 !H? If she understands partner's pass as denying a five card minor she might feel this ups the chances partner has three hearts and most probably has at least two.

It would be interesting to see the hands and then speculate on what might happen after 3 !H. They won't be playing 3H undoubled, but if hearts split 3-2 I can imagine the redoubler, vul against not, and with a strong three card spade holding, settling for the vul 4 !S game. Well, maybe. He can be sure 3 !H X is going down, but it has to go down 4 else 4 !S is better. I expect 3 !H is going down at least 4, probably more.


It's an interesting hand. And I repeat my agreement that most of us I/A players have not discussed the ins and outs of such an auction. I think there is broad consensus that the XX is not for a run. After that, I think it's a matter of thinking through matters such as "If partner had a five card minor he would have bid it".


It all might come down to 2 !S XX vul, making four, versus 3 !H X, non-vul, down five. I guess the down five is the lesser disaster. Neither is really great. We would have to see the hands to really compare the likely outcomes.
Ken
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