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OLOOT and a hasty dummy Law 54 or 56

#21 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2019-January-20, 10:30

I do hope no one is taken in by this nonsense!
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#22 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-January-20, 10:55

View Postgordontd, on 2019-January-20, 10:30, said:

I do hope no one is taken in by this nonsense!

Well, I agree we don’t rule that way, but technically he’s right. If both conditions are not met, law 54 does not apply. What the lawmakers should have written is “when an opening lead is faced out of turn, then if the correct leader has led face down the face down lead is retracted. After that, or if a lead from the correct hand was not made, (the rest of law 54 applies).
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#23 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-January-20, 11:52

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-January-20, 10:55, said:

Well, I agree we don’t rule that way, but technically he’s right. If both conditions are not met, law 54 does not apply. What the lawmakers should have written is “when an opening lead is faced out of turn, then if the correct leader has led face down the face down lead is retracted. After that, or if a lead from the correct hand was not made, (the rest of law 54 applies).

May I draw attention to my post #8 (and also #12)?

I still think that the simplest way to avoid this nonsense (other than just ignoring it) is to rephrase the preamble in Law 54 to read:
When an opening lead out of turn is faced* then:
.....
*if offender’s partner leads face down, the director requires the face down lead to be retracted.
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#24 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-January-21, 00:50

View Postpran, on 2019-January-20, 11:52, said:

May I draw attention to my post #8 (and also #12)?

I still think that the simplest way to avoid this nonsense (other than just ignoring it) is to rephrase the preamble in Law 54 to read:
When an opening lead out of turn is faced* then:
.....
*if offender’s partner leads face down, the director requires the face down lead to be retracted.

Directors are not at liberty to rephrase Laws, only WBFLC can do that. But that's how practically everyone has been interpreting Law 54 for decades.

#25 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-January-21, 04:57

View Postpran, on 2019-January-20, 11:52, said:

May I draw attention to my post #8 (and also #12)?

I still think that the simplest way to avoid this nonsense (other than just ignoring it) is to rephrase the preamble in Law 54 to read:
When an opening lead out of turn is faced* then:
.....
*if offender’s partner leads face down, the director requires the face down lead to be retracted.

View Postbarmar, on 2019-January-21, 00:50, said:

Directors are not at liberty to rephrase Laws, only WBFLC can do that. But that's how practically everyone has been interpreting Law 54 for decades.

I am willing to bet that this is what WBFLC has intended since before 1980 (and still intends).
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#26 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2019-January-21, 09:32

View Postpran, on 2019-January-20, 11:52, said:

May I draw attention to my post #8 (and also #12)?

I still think that the simplest way to avoid this nonsense (other than just ignoring it) is to rephrase the preamble in Law 54 to read:
When an opening lead out of turn is faced* then:
.....
*if offender’s partner leads face down, the director requires the face down lead to be retracted.


Rephrasing the law has merits. Rephrasing that way manifests a different nonsense.
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#27 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-January-21, 12:34

Five possibilities:

1. Putative declarer's LHO leads face down, while putative declarer's RHO also leads face down.
2 Putative declarer's LHO leads face up, while putative declarer's RHO also leads face up.
3. Putative declarer's LHO leads face down, while putative declarer's RHO leads face up.
4. Putative declarer's LHO leads face up, while putative declarer's RHO leads face down.
5. Putative declarer's LHO makes no lead, while putative declarer's RHO leads face up.

Which law applies, or which laws apply, to each of these situations?
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#28 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-January-21, 16:42

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-January-21, 12:34, said:

Five possibilities:

1. Putative declarer's LHO leads face down, while putative declarer's RHO also leads face down.
2 Putative declarer's LHO leads face up, while putative declarer's RHO also leads face up.
3. Putative declarer's LHO leads face down, while putative declarer's RHO leads face up.
4. Putative declarer's LHO leads face up, while putative declarer's RHO leads face down.
5. Putative declarer's LHO makes no lead, while putative declarer's RHO leads face up.

Which law applies, or which laws apply, to each of these situations?

1: 16B and 41A - The attempted lead by RHO is simply restored to his hand without being faced
2: 58A and 41C
3: 54
4: 16B and 41C - The attempted lead by RHO is simply restored to his hand without being faced
5: 54 - That is what this thread is all about, isn't it?
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#29 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-January-21, 20:05

I infer that you think that in cases 1 and 4 LHO has UI. What is the nature of this I? What does it imply?
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#30 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-January-22, 03:33

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-January-21, 20:05, said:

I infer that you think that in cases 1 and 4 LHO has UI. What is the nature of this I? What does it imply?

The fact that RHO attempted OLOOT is UI to LHO. What could be inferred from this UI is not obvious.

(Maybe for instance the auction as such could give some clue?)
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#31 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-January-22, 12:12

View Postpran, on 2019-January-22, 03:33, said:

The fact that RHO attempted OLOOT is UI to LHO. What could be inferred from this UI is not obvious.

You might suspect that they have a honding they're really eager to lead from, such as a singleton against a suit contract, or a nice honor sequence.

I think this is often the case when I attempt to OLOOT. Luckily I'm religious about making the OL face down, so we almost always catch it before it's faced.

I can't recall ever hearing of a TD being called to rule on the UI from a potential OLOOT that was not actually faced. Your turn, Lamford. :)

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