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optimal bidding for this hand misfit

#1 User is offline   phoenixmj 

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Posted 2019-January-12, 21:36



We came across this hand in a tournament. South is the dealer and NS is vulnerable. We did a terrible job of bidding this hand. It is a bit of a misfit, but 6N makes as does 6S, 6D, 5N, etc.

We wound up playing 4S - which was alarming when I saw my partner's hand come down with 2 spades. What is the optimal way of bidding this hand?

South passed. I opened 1D to start off the bidding. Partner bid 1H. I want to make forcing bids only. I wound up making 4 spades - but most people wind up in diamonds or hearts - both of which are easier to play. Double dummy says I can make 6 spades but I did not see that happening and frankly was happy to make 4 given that we have only 6 spades between us.

Any and all help/suggestions are appreciated.
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#2 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-January-12, 22:26

1D-1H
1S-3H (GF not necessarily SI)
4D

then I don't know. Probably East bids 4H or 5D, and West might punt 6NT or 6D respectively but will probably pass.

6NT seems to only make played by W and requires some very good guesswork (assuming no club lead, you need to finesse the hearts correctly and also finesse in spades rather than drop). 6D isn't great either - say you get a trump lead, you need to guess hearts correctly to set them up.

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#3 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-January-12, 22:31

Any auction that ends in a slam here is not optimal. Not one I'd want to be in.
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#4 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 04:24

1D, 1H
1S, 3H
4H

Slam is a lucky make, as others have pointed out.
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#5 User is offline   phoenixmj 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 06:04

In our section at the tournament - 2 people bid and made 6nt, 1 bid and made 6h, 1 bid and made 6d. I can possibly see bidding 6d - but not the others.

If the bidding goes 1d, 1h, 1s, 3h . Is a 4 heart direct bid ok with a singleton heart? I rebid my diamonds. We wound up in 4 spades which i felt lucky to even make. Seems like even going for any overtricks risks the contract. Of course now that i know where everything is i would happily take the risk:)

No one else played spades and not sure why partner shifted back to spades after my diamond bid. A bad board for us as i made exactly 4.
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#6 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 07:08

Misfit? You have two 8-card fits. That's a double fit.

View Postahydra, on 2019-January-12, 22:26, said:

1D-1H
1S-3H (GF not necessarily SI)
4D

then I don't know. Probably East bids 4H or 5D, and West might punt 6NT or 6D respectively but will probably pass.

View PostTramticket, on 2019-January-13, 04:24, said:

1D, 1H
1S, 3H
4H

Slam is a lucky make, as others have pointed out.

View Postphoenixmj, on 2019-January-13, 06:04, said:

If the bidding goes 1d, 1h, 1s, 3h . Is a 4 heart direct bid ok with a singleton heart?

Isn't 3 just invitational?
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#7 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 13:15

 nullve, on 2019-January-13, 07:08, said:

Isn't 3 just invitational?


In traditional Acol etc, yes. But in more modern setups, no. e.g. I play WJS, so a rebid of 2 is constructive 8-11ish.

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#8 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 13:43

In standard, 1-1;1-3 is invitational only, so I would bid 4th suit with a pickup partner.

With my regular partner 3 would be forcing, but would show a better suit, so I would bid 2, too. I guess the OP bid 1-1;2 - a popular method to kill constructive bidding.
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#9 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 14:14

1d
1h
1s
2c (fsf but even if just invite + will suffice since later follow up with hearts will then be game forcing)
3d do not want to risk 2d in case 2c was invite+ and partner might consider pass as an option (not in my universe I admit)
3h 6+ gf since a direct 3h earlier would have been invitational (note that 4h now would show a one loser suit)
4d denies heart support but more importantly should deny a club control for slam
4h KJ of hearts do not look so good opposite singleton or void but willing to play 4h opposite stiff honor
5d hearts not even that good
6c maybe 7d is there if p is void in hearts but hard to imagine 17 count stiff heart where slam does not have good play
6d maybe just maybe we overbid this one we shall see
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#10 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 14:28

If you play Fourth Suit Forcing (FSF), then the bidding is a bit easier --

If FSF is forcing for one round, then you can define jumps as GF, so

1 - 1
1 - 3 (GF)

is a game forcing auction with long . and now,

1 - 1
1 - 2 (FSF 1 Rd)
2 - 3 (Inv)

is invitational with long .

If FSF is GF, the auctions are similar but the 3 rebid switches meaning -- direct jump to 3 is invitational, jump to 3 after FSF is GF.

Without FSF or something like it, the jump to 3 has to be either invitational or game forcing. Since it can't be both, partnerships have to pick one of those meanings to use then accept the bidding "hole" in their system or figure out some workaround.

With FSF GF, I could see the bidding on this hand going

1 - 1
1 - 2 (GF)
3 - 3
3 - ?

3 should show 6-4 and 16-18 value. 3 doesn't show 6-5 but is a catch all bid. If opener was 6-5, then a rebid should be made over the 2 FSF bid. So 3 denies the ability to bid 3 NT or raise . It's sort of a waiting bid letting responder pick a place to play or keep the auction/conversation going.

Over 3 , the logical follow ups are either 4 or 4 . At MPs, responder might gamble on 3 NT. I'd probably just bid 4 .
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#11 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 14:36

SIR, the 2S bid is a jump shift reverse and forcing to game.It is a stretch as responder may have a bare 6 HCP.We would have bid 1D-1H-1S-2C-3D-3H-4H. 2C is the other minor forcing bid.3D shows a solid suit 3H shows a long strongish 6+ suit and desire to play in it and 4H is sign off fearing misfit in spade suit.When I gave the hands to some of my friends some of them ended in 3NT by W making 6 on a club lead.
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#12 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 15:34

View Postnullve, on 2019-January-13, 07:08, said:

Isn't 3 just invitational?

It wouldn't be just invitational playing XYZ either, all invitational sequences go through a 2 puppet.
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#13 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 16:25

 nullve, on 2019-January-13, 07:08, said:

Isn't 3 just invitational?


Yes.

If partner has two small diamond instead of the ace and king he will probably decline the invite, but passing will be very rare.
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