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Other uses of double in Mult-Landy

#1 User is offline   pstansbu 

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Posted 2019-January-11, 04:21

I suspect this might have been covered but I couldn't find anything really. I generally play Multi-Landy but increasingly playing against strong NT people where X=penalty typically keeps this card in its box. Two questions therefore:

  • What do people recommend for the double instead?
  • Is this worth extending to weak NT bids?


My thoughts on the first question are 4M 5m is an obvious candidate but not sure how we should continue as we have 2 unknown suits.

On the second I'm tempted to do something other than double for penalties. I can't remember when I last claimed any penalty points against a reasonably experienced pair, opponents either run to somewhere relatively safe or partner is weak and we run to somewhere relatively safe and, therefore, this ends up as a fairly "negative" auction. Wouldn't we do better making a "positive" bid where we are looking for a fit and to go somewhere good rather than away from somewhere bad?
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#2 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2019-January-11, 05:20

4M5m is certainly how most people play it if they play the double as anything but penalties. Should you give up the penalty double? Yes, you should - it never comes up and you rarely get to penalise anyone. Should you give it up against the weak NT? Yes, for the same reason. Same again when playing against 10-12 NT.

As for responses, 2C POC, 2D asking for the major, 2NT asking for the minor and all other suit bids natural wanting to play in your own suit are standard... I think? They certainly haven't gone wrong yet.
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#3 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2019-January-11, 06:34

The 4M 5m double doesn't preclude collecting a number: partner may well have a defensive oriented hand with which he can make a successful penalty pass. Indeed this is reminiscent of Edgar Kaplan adopting negative doubles after a 1NT opening is overcalled--it not only helps your constructive bidding, it collects more penalties than a penatly double.
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#4 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-January-11, 06:52

View PostDozyDom, on 2019-January-11, 05:20, said:

Should you give up the penalty double? Yes, you should - it never comes up and you rarely get to penalise anyone. Should you give it up against the weak NT? Yes, for the same reason.


I would not give up a penalty double against a weak no trump. The difference is that, once opps open a strong no trump, your chances of game are pretty remote. Bidding to game is still a live consideration against a weak no trump. This means that against a strong no trump your bidding can be destructive and aimed at interference, whereas you need to be able to bid constructively versus a weak no trump. Competing with an extremely wide range does not aid constructive bidding and a penalty double is useful in limiting the range of other bids, allowing for more constructive sequences if needed.
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#5 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-January-11, 07:50

View PostTramticket, on 2019-January-11, 06:52, said:

I would not give up a penalty double against a weak no trump. The difference is that, once opps open a strong no trump, your chances of game are pretty remote. Bidding to game is still a live consideration against a weak no trump. This means that against a strong no trump your bidding can be destructive and aimed at interference, whereas you need to be able to bid constructively versus a weak no trump. Competing with an extremely wide range does not aid constructive bidding and a penalty double is useful in limiting the range of other bids, allowing for more constructive sequences if needed.


The hand I posted where we collected 1700 last weekend via a penalty double of 1N and then 2 is a case in point. I would never give up this penalty double, and we really don't play many.
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#6 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-January-11, 07:55

After opponent's 1N, DozyDom's suggestion makes sense: Double = 5+m and 4+M.
For example, MikeStar13 seems right that this will result in more penalties than a simple penalty double.


There remains the problem as to what action to take when you hold a strong balanced hand.
Perhaps, if possible, you should take the Multi-Landy action that most closely matches your shape;
On a really strong hand you might then rebid 2N to clarify your hand-type.




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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-January-11, 08:10

View PostDozyDom, on 2019-January-11, 05:20, said:

As for responses, 2C POC, 2D asking for the major, 2NT asking for the minor and all other suit bids natural wanting to play in your own suit are standard... I think? They certainly haven't gone wrong yet.


You can also ask 2NT for the minor after asking 2D for the major, or even make that the only way to ask minor which frees a direct 2NT for some other use.
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#8 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2019-January-11, 10:48

woolsey defence.
http://blakjak.org/def_1nt01.htm
http://blakjak.org/def_1nt36.htm

The advantage, you have a bid for all 54 hands.

Giving up the penalty double against weak NT is a matter of taste,
but if the double promises some values, AS IT SHOULD, partner can
always convert, i.e. even a shape showing X has a penalty portion.
If you promise certain shapes, than the requirement for the values goes
down since partner knowes, what he can do, if he is broke.
.....................................................................
a reason for penalty (given by JLALL): the double puts an upper limit on
all other actions, i.e. it helps in deciding, if you should try for game
or not, this is relevant against weak NT, when game our side is still a
valid option.
If you promise a certain shape with X, you can always agree to compensate
missing shape by add. values, say bal. 18+ is still a double
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#9 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-January-12, 10:45

SIRS,whichever way one decides can only be played with a regular partner/partners.I,personally,feel that one should stick to the actions which are standard and which one can easily interprete leaving aside a Robot partner.
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-January-12, 20:12

We play that double of a strong NT (or a weak NT if we have already passed) is majors or minors or diamonds. Minor suit bids are 2-suited, and majors are natural. It seems to work pretty well, as it never forces us to the 3-level to find our best fit.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#11 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 13:43

wrongly posted .meant for another post
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#12 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 16:16

5m4M is how pretty much everyone plays X if you adopt 2C as Landy and 2D as one major. A penalty X of a strong NT is rare, and when it does come up, you just as often end up in the soup as collecting a big number.

Over a weak NT (weak generally means a top range of 14 or less), I don't like to give up the penalty double. Mohan is a good treatment:

X cards
2C majors
2D hearts
2H spades
2S spades and a minor
2NT hearts and a minor

Capp isn't awful over a weak NT, either.

Cheers,
mike
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