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Declarer claim but he's unware of outstanding trump

#1 User is offline   plypoin 

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Posted 2019-January-08, 07:45


as Trump
West had no diamond left.

South stated "We have all the trump, the rest of the trick is mine". North on lead.
East called for TD, claiming he had one trick for the trump ( as south wasn't aware of outstanding trump).
Ruling ?


Would your ruling be different if North have no remaining trump ?
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#2 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-January-08, 08:17

View Postplypoin, on 2019-January-08, 07:45, said:


as Trump
West had no diamond left.

South stated "We have all the trump, the rest of the trick is mine". North on lead.
East called for TD, claiming he had one trick for the trump ( as south wasn't aware of outstanding trump).
Ruling ?

Would your ruling be different if North have no remaining trump ?

Law 70 C said:

2 -it is at all likely that claimer at the time of his claim was unaware that a trump remained in an opponent’s hand, and
3 -a trick could be lost to that trump by any normal* play.
*Footnote: For the purposes of Laws 70 and 71, “normal” includes play that would be careless or inferior for the class of player involved.

For a player who believes "We have all the trump" it is perfectly normal to enter his hand with a Diamond lead from Dummy.
If he were aware of the outstanding trump it would be utterly careless, but still "normal" as defined in the footnote to do so.

Ruling: One trick to the defence.

And no, it would not make any difference if North have no remaining trump.
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-January-08, 10:53

I'm wondering if there might be a language issue here as "We have all the trump" is not how an English speaker would say it.

Plypoin, where are you from and where is the claimer from ?

I'm wondering if this is somebody thinking they've effectively said "drawing trumps".
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#4 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-January-08, 12:45

That's my take as well, CY.

At the very least I think the claim states an order of play, e.g. trumps first, and since he's in dummy and has a trump to lead there, I think the line of play is lead a trump and then cover the 8 with the J. I would have a word with S about sloppy claims certainly, but I can't see myself giving the defense a trick.
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#5 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 10:58

Since English is the official language of bridge, I would argue that it is up to all players to know English to a sufficiently high standard for their meanings to be understood. If the words "We have all the trump" have a doubtful meaning then we rule against the claimer as per law 70.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
No one ever becomes a TD because of the money. They do it because they want to help bridge flourish in their club, region or nation.
Getting rid of one rude player might result in the arrival of four pleasant ones.
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#6 User is online   axman 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 15:16

View Postweejonnie, on 2019-January-09, 10:58, said:

Since English is the official language of bridge, I would argue that it is up to all players to know English to a sufficiently high standard for their meanings to be understood. If the words "We have all the trump" have a doubtful meaning then we rule against the claimer as per law 70.

Well, a lot of arrogance goes a long way...but in what direction? There is something to be said for writing in bridge when one does not have command of the tongue of the day; but when it comes to claims, in such a situation best advice is to not claim.
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#7 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 15:47

View Postaxman, on 2019-January-09, 15:16, said:

Well, a lot of arrogance goes a long way...but in what direction? There is something to be said for writing in bridge when one does not have command of the tongue of the day; but when it comes to claims, in such a situation best advice is to not claim.

Well if French was the official language of bridge, I am sure I wouldn't claim as I don't know the correct words to say. I am not arrogant, just stating my opinion. Dura lex sed lex.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
No one ever becomes a TD because of the money. They do it because they want to help bridge flourish in their club, region or nation.
Getting rid of one rude player might result in the arrival of four pleasant ones.
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#8 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 19:22

Well, someone involved in the original post is not fluent in English, since there are several errors involving pluralization. It should be "We have all the trumps, the rest of the tricks are mine."

We don't know if the problem was with the player or the poster reporting it (I suspect the poster, as he has similar errors in the rest of the text). In fact, do we even know if the conversation was actually in English, or did the OP translate it for our benefit? He's apparently from Indonesia.

#9 User is offline   pgoddard 

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Posted 2019-January-11, 23:44

View Postweejonnie, on 2019-January-09, 10:58, said:

Since English is the official language of bridge . . .


I would like to know where this is specified. I have looked at the current laws, and at the WBF site without finding such a specification. If it is specified, is it so for all areas? or do different regions specify other languages?
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-January-11, 23:59

"English is the official language of bridge" is, I believe, somewhere in WBF regulations, and I think also in ACBL regulations (general conditions of contest maybe). Being regulations, the statement only applies in the jurisdiction of the regulating authority promulgating that regulation. I doubt that English is the official language of bridge in any non-English speaking country. There is nothing in the laws about the language(s) spoken at the table, or to a director or appeals body.

As for the ruling in the OP case, I agree with Sven.
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#11 User is offline   pgoddard 

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Posted 2019-January-12, 00:53

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-January-11, 23:59, said:

"English is the official language of bridge" is, I believe, somewhere in WBF regulations

Thanks - I found in the General conditions of contest:

Quote

WORLD BRIDGE FEDERATION GENERAL CONDITIONS OF CONTEST
For all World Championships and other Tournaments held under the auspices
of the World Bridge Federation
...
4. Official Language
English is the official language of a World Bridge Championship. During a match the players may converse only in English unless both captains (in team games) or all four players at the table (in pairs events) agree to use some other common language at their own risk. If necessary, each captain is responsible for the provision of an interpreter for translation into English.

which (as noted by Blackshoe) does not make it universal.
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#12 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2019-January-13, 09:17

View Postpgoddard, on 2019-January-12, 00:53, said:

Thanks - I found in the General conditions of contest:

which (as noted by Blackshoe) does not make it universal.

OK mea culpa.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
No one ever becomes a TD because of the money. They do it because they want to help bridge flourish in their club, region or nation.
Getting rid of one rude player might result in the arrival of four pleasant ones.
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