[Liversidge]

After my pass, partner opened 1♠. I had 4 card support and, 10 HCP and 8 losers. My RHO responded 2♣ and I bid 3♠, ignoring the overcall. Partner had 6 losers but passed, thinking that after my pass I might have a weak hand and but good support. We missed game.
We had a discussion afterwards and I said that my understanding was that you just ignore the overcall provided it does not prevent you from making your bid at the intended level, except when you were planning to rebid No Trumps, in which case you now need a good stop in the overcall suit. Are there any other exceptions?

[gordontd]

It’s usual for the jump raise you made to be preemptive to some extent. With a hand of your strength or stronger you would make an Unassuming Cue-bid of 3C.

[ahydra]

After an intervening overcall I play:

2S = weak raise, could be very little
3S = mixed raise, say 7-9 HCPs with 4-card support
2NT = 4+-card INV+ raise [natural if opening bid was a minor]
cue = 3-card INV+ raise [3+ cards if opening bid was a minor]

Over X is similar, except now there's no cuebid so with a 3-card raise you start with a new suit, just like if opps were silent.

These kinds of things are fairly standard, though some people play the jump to 3 very aggressively PRE (perhaps even just Qxxx of trumps and out), and some find different uses for 2NT vs the cuebid. More advanced treatments such as transfers are also possible.

What you stated about ignoring the overcall and the stop for NT applies more to opener's rebid, particularly if fourth seat overcalls or advances. You need style agreements here too, for example see this thread.

ahydra

[apollo1201]

It just basically emphasizes that you should play the same system as partner 🤣

Ignoring the overcall is not a standard treatment. The reason is that the auction might become highly competitive (well, a bit less likely after a 3rd-hand opening) and it is important to:
- fight for the partscore with adequate distribution w/o letting opps breathe
- give partner (if he’s strong) a precise view of the prospects (bid 1 more, X, etc.)

So you need way to distinguish 3 or 4-cd raises, weak, invitational (or GF but unlikely again when you passed 1st). Can’t show all, but as others mentionned, there are ways to do that. Some more common than others. Incl. 3M as a preemptive raise. Which explained why your partner passed.

[neilkaz]

For me and rather standard in these parts for players above beginner level. Cue=LROB. Cue of 3♣ shows limit raise or better. Therefore, 3♠ can be preemptive (some would play mixed).

[rmnka447]

It sounds like you hit one of the kinks that occur with newer partners because you haven't discussed them.

Some people used to play a jump raise as you indicated "ignoring the overcall".

However, with the advent of Law of Total Tricks championed by Marty Bergen, it's gotten to be more common here to use direct raises in the agreed suit as preemptive. So, you have to use some other means to show a limit raise or better hand. Typically that is cueing the opponent's suit.

The important thing is to discuss how you will play with your partner and decide on your approach.

With most of my partners, we play all direct raises in competition as showing 5-8 value -- 2 level shows 3 trump, 3 level shows 4 trump, 4 level shows 5 trump. We play like this over our openings and our overcalls. Opener can use the LOTT to compete further with this information. After opening, the cue of opponents suit shows limit raise or better. After our overcalls, a jump cue if available at the 3 level (1 ♦ - (1 ♠) - P - (3 ♦)) shows a limit raise while a simple cue shows a better hand.

[nige1]

I like Ahydra's approach (similar to Segal and Robson;s) e,g, when partner opens a major and RHO overcalls

• 1N/3N = NAT with stop
• New suit = NAT (F/1 unless by passed hand).
• Raises = PRE weak hand
• 2N = ART Good 4-card raise.
• CUE = ART Usually 3-card support but might be stop-ask.
• New suit jump = FIT good suit + support.

Instead of fit-jumps, you can play splinters.
Or you can play single-jump = fit, double-jump = splinter.

After partner's minor opening, 2N is natural.

[fromageGB]

You will note a difference between gordontd's and ahydra's methods. As appollo stated, in competition it is vital to know both strength and length of support. An invitational raise, or "limit raise" cannot be assigned just one bid, because while say a 4 card support and some strength, or 3 card support and a bit more strength, may both be considered sufficient, when the next opponent bids, opener may want to bid on with the former but double for penalty when you have the latter.

2NT and a bid of opp's suit are the two bids to use here. One means 3 card support, the other means 4, in a typical style, but be careful you agree which. Ahdydra plays 2NT=4 card, cue=3 card, and that is probably the most common. I prefer 2NT=3 card, and cue = 4 card because when you have a longer fit, it is more beneficial for the opponents to compete. If 2NT=4 card, it therefore lets them get in a cheap 3♣, and with a 9-card fit partner is almost certainly having to bidding on. If 2NT=3 card, then if they try 3♣ partner has an excellent chance to double for penalty, as you have the majority of the points and they have taken their bidding too high.

To put a hcp strength on these bids, in a typical flattish hand, I would go with

• 2♠ = 3 card up to 10
  
• 2NT = 3 card 11+
  
• 3♣ = 4+ card 9+
  
• 3♠ = 4 card up to 8

When you are moving from beginner to intermediate, think of adding transfer responses after a major opening is overcalled, as ahydra says. That can come later. Beginners can become deluged with things to remember, but if you and partner can manage the 2NT/cue bids, it will help greatly in your bidding.

[gordontd]

Isn't this the novice and beginner forum? Nothing "vital" about giving up a natural 2NT to distinguish between three and four-card raises. I only play it if my partners want to, it's certainly not something I think I "need" to play.

[pescetom]

gordontd, on 2019-January-05, 07:51, said:

Isn't this the novice and beginner forum? Nothing "vital" about giving up a natural 2NT to distinguish between three and four-card raises.

I agree. But FWIW, I think the reason people usually play 2nt=4-card and cue=3-card rather than vice versa is to put interferer on lead if opener decides to play in 3nt rather than 4M in 5-3.

[bilalz]

Interesting replies. I am wondering you any of you play Acol (opener's major can be 4 cards) and if the treatment for 3 card or 4 card support is the same? At the moment we use the cheaper of the two bids (cue or 2nt) as game forcing and the other as INV+. I guess we could use the game forcing bid and then follow it up with a 3nt to indicate a 3 card support with game forcing values and stopper. The 3 card support invitational hand is still tricky but we rely on judgement to upgrade or downgrade or use the bid that allows atleast one partner to ask for stopper.