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ATB new partnership missed nearly 100% slam

Poll: ATB new partnership missed nearly 100% slam (23 member(s) have cast votes)

What should have happened differently

  1. S should have bid 5!D over 4H (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. S should have cued 5!C over 4S (5 votes [21.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.74%

  3. N should have bid a forcing 2S to try and gather more info about opener's hand (1 votes [4.35%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.35%

  4. N should have driven to slam over P's 5D (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. No blame - both acted reasonably throughout (3 votes [13.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.04%

  6. Other (14 votes [60.87%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 60.87%

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#1 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 09:46



IMP teams, with no sophisticated agreements.

Also I can't find the hand records now - it's possible S had the JD. Would that affect your view?
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 09:49

Not sure there's really any blame to assign here. Hard to find Q anywhere on the auction and that's a two trick difference. Whatever N is hoping for, S has basically the worst possible hand.
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#3 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 10:22

I have no heartache with the bidding through 4s but I cannot fathom a reason why south did not bid 4n instead of 5d. If 4s was not a void I am shocked and if responder has 2 aces how bad can 6d be? Responder is still trying for slam after our pass of 4h so some extra values has to be assumed.
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#4 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 10:28

View Postgszes, on 2019-January-02, 10:22, said:

I have no heartache with the bidding through 4s but I cannot fathom a reason why south did not bid 4n instead of 5d. If 4s was not a void I am shocked and if responder has 2 aces how bad can 6d be? Responder is still trying for slam after our pass of 4h so some extra values has to be assumed.


Unfortunately partner's hand was void, Qx, AQJxxxx, Axxx and it was no play.

For us, the splinter is GF so pass over 4 is forcing, not sure about that in a new partnership
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#5 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 10:57

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-January-02, 10:28, said:

Unfortunately partner's hand was void, Qx, AQJxxxx, Axxx and it was no play.

??
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 11:04

View Postgordontd, on 2019-January-02, 10:57, said:

??


Sorry thought N had Q not S

Is it impossible N has a stiff A here though ? (particularly if your splinters are undiscussed)
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#7 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 11:45

Why are 5 and 6 the only options for South over 4? Is it forbidden to make a cooperative move with 5?
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#8 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 11:59

South has only 8 working points. Difficult for him to do more.
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#9 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 12:34

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-January-02, 11:04, said:

Sorry thought N had Q not S

Is it impossible N has a stiff A here though ? (particularly if your splinters are undiscussed)


Does N even have to have A here? If he had, say, KJ in and Qxxxx in doesn't he bid the same way?
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#10 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 13:06

View PostTramticket, on 2019-January-02, 11:59, said:

South has only 8 working points. Difficult for him to do more.

Is it really so hard to envision that the heart shortness might be useful?
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#11 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 13:07

View PostTylerE, on 2019-January-02, 12:34, said:

Does N even have to have A here? If he had, say, KJ in and Qxxxx in doesn't he bid the same way?

No he does not.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#12 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 15:06

The second splinter of 4 is not just saying void, and let's bid game, it is saying slam is in the offing, though how they then reach 6 is open to question. Though it is up to South to envisage that his partner has some 10-15 HCPs (or something like that) to splinter in a minor in the first place, and work out where those points are likely to be.

He has an extra , useful cards in the unbid suit s and a singleton . 5 is a lazy bid. Both 4NT and 5 seem much better.

And yes, there are plenty of hands that you can give North where 6 will never make, but I believe South is at fault here for not trusting his partner and making some forward gesture, even with his aceless hand.
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#13 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 15:55

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-January-02, 11:04, said:

Is it impossible N has a stiff A here though ? (particularly if your splinters are undiscussed)

It is for me, particularly if splinters *are* undiscussed.
For the rest, I agree with gszes and The_Badger.
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#14 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 16:15

View Postcherdano, on 2019-January-02, 11:45, said:

Why are 5 and 6 the only options for South over 4? Is it forbidden to make a cooperative move with 5?


Woops, right. Changed the poll.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#15 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 18:20

View PostTylerE, on 2019-January-02, 12:34, said:

Does N even have to have A here? If he had, say, KJ in and Qxxxx in doesn't he bid the same way?


My remark was connected to bidding 4N and getting a 2 ace response, which he doesn't get with that.
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#16 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 23:25

Are N/S playing Unusual vs. Unusual? The poll choices include one where 2 is indicated as forcing. In U vs. U, 2 would indicate and values.

In any case, if you have a forcing bid available and choose to splinter, you must not only be showing values but a distributional feature as well. With poor or mediocre values and distribution, you can just pick a level of and bid it.

When North bids 4 , it shows absolute control of and must show a pretty good hand for because it indicates some slam interest (else 5 ). Tramticket pointed out that South has only 8 working which is true. But South also doesn't have 2 Quick losers in any suit outside of and North has already shown complete control of the suit.

North can't bid as shown with an A-less hand outside of . Given at least one A in , or , 5 must have some sort of play. If North has 2 or more, than slam should be playable. So whether 4 NT is A asking, Last Train/waiting, or 2 places to play, I think South has to bid it and also show some slam interest.
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#17 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2019-January-02, 23:30

North is bidding aggressive. Must have good better fit. Spade void. South with heart stiff must bid rkcb. 2 out of 3 aces make slam a good call.
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#18 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2019-January-03, 02:27

Hi,

if North only needs a heart shortage, he knowes, that South has one, the opponents have told him,
that they have at least a 9 card fit.
5C by South would show the Ace of clubs / first round control, at least this is my take on standard,
so South does not have a 5C bid.
... I would not have bid 4NT as South, I guess this showes, that am a chicken in the slam zone, but
given the knowledge of the heart shortage, North could have bid 6C himself, it would have taken similar
courage as the 4NT bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#19 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-January-03, 02:31

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2019-January-03, 02:27, said:

5C by South would show the Ace of clubs / first round control, at least this is my take on standard,
so South does not have a 5C bid.

It's certainly not standard. Indeed, why would anyone play an agreement that doesn't allow South to cooperate with a slam try, and that doesn't allow South to show useful values in partner's likely side suit? Even the most religious first-round control bidder should show some flexibility here.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#20 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2019-January-03, 04:17

South should bid 6 over 4. He has the world's fair after such a strong sequence by North.
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