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Muppet variant on all GF hands with 5+ S

#1 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2018-December-31, 07:13

Idea:

2N-?:

3 = a) like standard Muppet, but not 4S2-H unless slam interest b) GF, 5+ S
...3 = 4 M or 3S5H
......3 = 4+ S, (perhaps) not 4S4H
.........3 = 3S4+H
............3N = 4S3H, CoG
...............P = 3S4H
...............4 = 3S5H
............(...)
.........3N = 2S4H
.........4+ = 4 S
......3 = 3-S4H, but not 2- S unless slam interest
......3N = no major
......(...)
...3 = no M (as in standard Muppet)
......3 = 4- S, puppet to 3N
......3N = 5S4-H, CoG
......4+ = e.g. like 4+ over 2N-3; 3 in standard
...3 = 5 S (as in standard Muppet)
...3N = 2S5H (5-3 S fit impossible)
(...)
3 = c) < GF, 5+ S d) game interest only, 4S2-H e) a strong option
...3 = 2-3 S or 4333 (unable to superaccept opposite c))
......P = c)
......3N = d)
......4+ = e)
...3N+ = 4+ S, not 4333 (superaccept opposite c))
(...)

This could be combined with something like

3 = as above, but with e) slam interest, either 3S5+m4+Om or 3S6+m
...3/N = as above, but denying 5 S
...4+ = 5 S
3 = f) game interest only, 2-S3H g) slam interest, either 3H5+m4+Om or 3H6+m
...3N = 4- H
...4+ = 5 H

so that Responder with 3 M and slam interest doesn't have to choose between looking for 5-3 M fit and showing his own shape.

Edit: I wish I had put the 'all' in the title in scare quotes, as the above seems perfectly compatible with e.g. the 4 response being a (Texas) transfer to spades.
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2018-December-31, 12:52

It's always seemed odd to me that people open 2NT with these hands, then go to so many contortions to find the major fit that would've been immediate if they opened 1M.

Anyway, the main downside here seems to be that it makes some minor suit auctions fuzzier. For example after 2NT-3-3, it's not clear whether 4m is five spades plus a 4-card minor, or a four-card major plus a 5-card minor. This makes it harder to tell whether opener should cooperate with the minor slam try (does he need four-support?) and also means that 4 may have to be an offer to play rather than a cue for the minor (does this apply to both hands? just opener?)
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#3 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2019-January-01, 05:07

Perhaps a good idea (I need time to check the implications on minor suit auction in detail).

For the time being, we play the following:

2NT-3/3:
3M = 2M, <5oM
3M+1 = 2M, 5oM
3M+2 = 4M max
3M+3 = 4M min
4M-1 = 3M max
4M = 3M min

This might not be ideal, but at least gets us to the right strain. Hands that want to play in 3M after 2NT are not that frequent. Hands with slam interest opposite a doubleton are shown by an immediate 4-level transfer, so a 4m rebid by responder is natural if no fit has been established.
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#4 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2019-January-01, 05:33

View Postawm, on 2018-December-31, 12:52, said:

Anyway, the main downside here seems to be that it makes some minor suit auctions fuzzier. For example after 2NT-3-3, it's not clear whether 4m is five spades plus a 4-card minor, or a four-card major plus a 5-card minor. This makes it harder to tell whether opener should cooperate with the minor slam try (does he need four-support?) and also means that 4 may have to be an offer to play rather than a cue for the minor (does this apply to both hands? just opener?)

One possibility, consistent with the above:

2N-3; 3-?:

3 = 4- S, puppet to 3N
...3N = forced
......P = wanted to play 3N
......4+ = slam interest
3N = 5S4-H, NF
4+ = same as 4+ over 2N-3; 3 in standard, so promising 5+ S

Then the problems after 2N-3; 3-4+ will largely be the same as after 2N-3; 3-4+ in standard, too.
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#5 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2019-January-01, 18:47

View Postdokoko, on 2019-January-01, 05:07, said:

For the time being, we play the following:

2NT-3/3:
3M = 2M, <5oM
3M+1 = 2M, 5oM
3M+2 = 4M max
3M+3 = 4M min
4M-1 = 3M max
4M = 3M min

This might not be ideal, but at least gets us to the right strain. Hands that want to play in 3M after 2NT are not that frequent. Hands with slam interest opposite a doubleton are shown by an immediate 4-level transfer, so a 4m rebid by responder is natural if no fit has been established.

I kind of like the moden trend in 2/1 where 20-21 BAL is in 2 and 2N is stronger (e.g. 22-23). Then it becomes (even) less important to be able to stop in 3M after 2N-[3M-1], so a structure like yours makes a lot of sense.

Still, if

2N-?:

3 = (standard) Muppet
3 = 5+ S

and

2N-3; ?:

3 = 2S4-H
3N = 2S5H
4+ = 3+ S,

then there are suddenly two ways of finding the 5-3 H fit when Opener has 2S5H and Responder 5S3H, so that doesn't seem like best use of the available bidding space.
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#6 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2019-January-01, 22:43

View Postnullve, on 2019-January-01, 18:47, said:

I kind of like the moden trend in 2/1 where 20-21 BAL is in 2 and 2N is stronger (e.g. 22-23). Then it becomes (even) less important to be able to stop in 3M after 2N-[3M-1], so a structure like yours makes a lot of sense.

Still, if

2N-?:

3 = (standard) Muppet
3 = 5+ S

and

2N-3; ?:

3 = 2S4-H
3N = 2S5H
4+ = 3+ S,

then there are suddenly two ways of finding the 5-3 H fit when Opener has 2S5H and Responder 5S3H, so that doesn't seem like best use of the available bidding space.


We don't bid 3 with 5+.
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