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Part-score Competition

Poll: Part-score Competition (32 member(s) have cast votes)

Who should bid more?

  1. East should compete to 3S (16 votes [47.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 47.06%

  2. West should compete to 3S (3 votes [8.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.82%

  3. No fault - just unlucky (11 votes [32.35%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.35%

  4. East/West should change their system (4 votes [11.76%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.76%

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#1 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-December-04, 02:47



Multiple Teams Competition

You are sitting East/West and play four-card majors and a weak no trump. The 1 opening promises either 5+ spades or 15+ points if only a four-card suit. The 2 response promises 3+ spades, but will only be a three-card suit if some additional shape.

Opponents made 3 at your table. At teammates table (and other tables in the room), East/West made 3.

Who should do more?

[Edited to clarify following Badger's request]
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#2 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2018-December-04, 03:14

View PostTramticket, on 2018-December-04, 02:47, said:

You are sitting East/West and play four-card majors and a weak no trump. The 1 opening promises either 5+ spades or 15+ points.


Can you please clarify this, Tramticket. Thanks.
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#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-December-04, 03:18

View PostThe_Badger, on 2018-December-04, 03:14, said:

Can you please clarify this, Tramticket. Thanks.


The 1 opening will only ever be a four-card suit if outside our no trump range and since we open 1NT with 12-14, it will only be a four-card suit if 15+ HCP.
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#4 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2018-December-04, 05:51

no blame for me, I guess if East had strong NT type hand with 4 spades he'd double, and with a strong hand with 5 spades he'd bid some number of spade, so he's basically showing a 5th spade and unbalanced weak hand (I might be wrong on that). and as far is west is concerned okay he knows there's a likely 9 card fit, but for all he knows 4H is cold for N/S.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#5 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-December-04, 07:18

View Posteagles123, on 2018-December-04, 05:51, said:

no blame for me, I guess if East had strong NT type hand with 4 spades he'd double, and with a strong hand with 5 spades he'd bid some number of spade, so he's basically showing a 5th spade and unbalanced weak hand (I might be wrong on that). and as far is west is concerned okay he knows there's a likely 9 card fit, but for all he knows 4H is cold for N/S.


There are many situations where a double by opener will show the strong NT type (e.g. we do not play Support Doubles, preferring double to show the Strong No Trump type). But here, since there is no room for a game-try bid, I think that double would be a "Game Try Double" (with number of trumps undefined). A raise to 3 would tend to be competitive (again we haven't defined how many trumps this promises).

Clearly our agreements are a bit fuzzy, so I am interested in other's opinions.
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#6 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2018-December-04, 07:53

View Posteagles123, on 2018-December-04, 05:51, said:

no blame for me, I guess if East had strong NT type hand with 4 spades he'd double, and with a strong hand with 5 spades he'd bid some number of spade, so he's basically showing a 5th spade and unbalanced weak hand (I might be wrong on that). and as far is west is concerned okay he knows there's a likely 9 card fit, but for all he knows 4H is cold for N/S.


Yes this. Just swap the black jacks and it's there. I assume you are playing a variant of Acol here, so you haven't got the option of a forcing 1NT - and that in itself might wrong side a contract if opener is balanced and strong - or Bergen responses. So you are left with a fairly non-descript 2 raise. It might be possible - though you'd have to analyse this thoroughly - to have a flexi option of 2 being a constructive 8-11 with 3 or <8 with 4 here. Though whether that will help on this particular hand is open to question. I think you also need to know what a competitive X means in this type of auction by both partners, and that it adds to the system constructively.

I'm not totally convinced that East should compete to 3 as a) 4 may be cold and you could push them there; b) South could be sitting with a trump stack over East - North is likely to be short given the bidding. Though admittedly, it's a lot easier seeing all four hands here.

It'll be interesting to know how the bidding went at the other table, and their agreements.
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#7 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2018-December-04, 11:25

I've always played that the person with shortness is the one who should consider aggression. West has a 4333 and is very disinclined to move anywhere. East, while a minimum, has good shape in a 5th spade and shortness in the overcalled suit. The thing I'd be concerned about, is pushing them into a 4h contract that makes. NOW you're getting a bad board. I can't fault a pass, but I'd lead toward bidding 3s with the east hand. In this case, the LoTT works.
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#8 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-December-04, 11:27

View PostThe_Badger, on 2018-December-04, 03:14, said:

Can you please clarify this, Tramticket. Thanks.


I think it's called four and a half card majors B-)
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#9 User is offline   pes_6 

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Posted 2018-December-05, 04:02

I clicked first that west should compete to 3 but I changed my opinion after see that you open 4-card major. So, change your system to 5-card major opens or be reconciled with bad score on this type of boards.
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#10 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-December-05, 05:33

I do not blame the system; it's what I play! I think the singleton heart takes on value on the bidding and should cause East to bid one more. Occasionally, this will result in opps bidding a making game, that they were not going to bid. More often, I think, they will bid 4 as insurance. Just don't lead the A if they do!
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#11 User is offline   maartenxq 

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Posted 2018-December-05, 09:32

System as it is almost compels east in my opinion to compete. He has 5 and singleton . West could do the same but red and 4333 are big minuses. This problem makes me prefer 5 M once again.

Maarten Baltussen
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#12 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-December-05, 11:25

The LAW is a very good guide at the 2 and 3 levels. The LAW would say that the odds favor East bidding 3S over 3H (that should be competitive; a X would be maximal and a game try).

You have 5 spades. In your system, your partner probably has 4, but if they have 3, they will have extra shape. So you either have 9 trump or else 8 trump with a double fit and very few SSL (short suit losers).

You have a stiff heart. East rates to have at least 6. So the opponents rate to have 9 (if the remaining H are 3/3), but should have at least 8.

So what are the possibilities:

1. Each side has an 8-card fit, but with a double fit and shapely hands. Then the total tricks are likely to be 17, rather than 16. You probably do best to bid 3S at MPs and pass at IMPs, but bidding 3S at IMPs will generally work out fine (only time it won't is when the opponents have 10 tricks, you have 7, they X, and most the other way don't find their game).

2. You have 9 and the opponents have 8. That means partner is 4/4 in the majors. TT=17. This one is likely a wash. Again, you may do better to bid at MPs and pass at IMPs, but bidding at IMPs should be OK most of the time.

. You have 8 and the opponents have 9. Now the TT are 17, but now since partner is shapely, both sides should have a double fit with few SSL. So again the total tricks are likely one higher - 18. Now you need to bid 3S, as it is quite possible both contracts make.

4. You and the opponents both have 9. Now you clearly need to bid.

So in two cases, it's close, and in the other two cases, it's right to bid. Seems clear, therefore, to bid 3S.

Cheers,
Mike
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#13 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-December-05, 17:32

You lack a lot of tools I use a LOT. Forcing nt, constructive and Bergen raises so it's probably no fault.

That said, how did the other table get to 3? I would be keeping an eye on how these methods fair against different ones in competitive partscore situations to see if adding 1 or 2 of the above would be a good idea. And fear of balancing them into game is about the last thing I worry about.
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#14 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-December-07, 05:10

Thanks all for your valued comments and opinions. Some interesting comments and split opinions. I think that this is a difficult hand for the system, but I am too familiar with our system to want to change - even if I suspect that it is sub-optimal on some hands! :)

I also suspect that this hand is also tricky in a strong NT context - west is now sure of the nine-card fit (rather than the nine-card fit being "likely"), but west has an ugly 4333 shape and the vulnerability does tend to suggest caution.
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#15 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2018-December-07, 05:48

I don't think this hand is so difficult. East is 5=1 in the majors, he should bid one more, especially when playing weak NT. I'd also bid playing strong NT.
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