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Wrong Claim Accepted Wrong Claim was Made and Accepted and Revealed.

#1 User is offline   captyogi 

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Posted 2018-November-29, 04:19

Declarer Made a Wrong Claim , Which Was Accepted and Scores Entered in Team Event.

After the Match was over and Cards handed over to TD, it was revealed that it is Impossible to Make the Contract by any Normal Play.
Can it be Corrected within 5 min and Round is still going on on some Tables.


Thx n Brgds

Yogesh V. Abhyankar
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#2 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2018-November-29, 06:07

View Postcaptyogi, on 2018-November-29, 04:19, said:

Declarer Made a Wrong Claim , Which Was Accepted and Scores Entered in Team Event.

After the Match was over and Cards handed over to TD, it was revealed that it is Impossible to Make the Contract by any Normal Play.
Can it be Corrected within 5 min and Round is still going on on some Tables.


Thx n Brgds

Yogesh V. Abhyankar

Deleted in deference to weejonnie correcting my misunderstanding below!
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#3 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2018-November-29, 06:49

Please be careful about this - accepting a claim is NOT a concession.

You want law 69B

B. Withdrawal of Established Agreement
Agreement with a claim or concession (see A) may be withdrawn within the Correction Period
established under Law 79C:
1. if a player agreed to the loss of a trick his side had, in fact, won; or
2. if a player has agreed to the loss of a trick that his side would likely have won had the play
continued.
The board is rescored with such trick awarded to his side.

(Which is much more favourable to the non-claiming side)
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
No one ever becomes a TD because of the money. They do it because they want to help bridge flourish in their club, region or nation.
Getting rid of one rude player might result in the arrival of four pleasant ones.
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#4 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-November-29, 13:43

Seems to me 79C is germane to the OP's question.

Quote

Law 79C: Error in Score
1. An error in recording or computing the agreed-upon score, whether made by a player or an official, may be corrected until the expiration of the period(s) specified by the Tournament Organizer. Unless the Tournament Organizer specifies a later25 time, this Correction Period expires 30 minutes after the official score has been made available for inspection.
2. Subject to approval by the Tournament Organizer, a scoring error may be corrected after expiry of the Correction Period if the Director is satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the record is wrong.

25 An earlier time may be specified when required by the special nature of a contest.

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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#5 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-November-29, 13:50

View Postblackshoe, on 2018-November-29, 13:43, said:

Seems to me 79C is germane to the OP's question.

I don't think so. An "error in scoring" means that the score entered doesn't reflect what actually happened at the table. The claim was actually agreed to, and the score matches that result.

Weejonnie's quoted law seems like the relevant one.

#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-November-29, 14:00

The reason I think that Law 79C is germane is that the OP asked about the timing of a score correction. I did not say that 69B isn't relevant, just that 79C is too. Note that the first sentence of 79C refers to "an error in recording or computing (my emphasis) the agreed-upon score". There was an error in computing the score, in that it was scored based on agreement with the claim, and that agreement was withdrawn.

To cover everything, we should probably include

Quote

Law 92B: Time of Appeal
The right to request or appeal a Director’s ruling expires 30 minutes after the official score has been made available for inspection unless the Tournament Organizer has specified a different time period.

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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#7 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2018-November-29, 14:13

View Postweejonnie, on 2018-November-29, 06:49, said:

Please be careful about this - accepting a claim is NOT a concession.

You want law 69B

B. Withdrawal of Established Agreement
Agreement with a claim or concession (see A) may be withdrawn within the Correction Period
established under Law 79C:
1. if a player agreed to the loss of a trick his side had, in fact, won; or
2. if a player has agreed to the loss of a trick that his side would likely have won had the play
continued.
The board is rescored with such trick awarded to his side.

(Which is much more favourable to the non-claiming side)


Since the cards were mixed, how does anyone know 'a trick that his side would likely have won had the play
continued.' without knowing the position of all the cards?
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#8 User is offline   captyogi 

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Posted 2018-November-29, 21:01

Both the Parties Agree.
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#9 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-December-01, 14:56

View Postblackshoe, on 2018-November-29, 14:00, said:

The reason I think that Law 79C is germane is that the OP asked about the timing of a score correction. I did not say that 69B isn't relevant, just that 79C is too. Note that the first sentence of 79C refers to "an error in recording or computing (my emphasis) the agreed-upon score". There was an error in computing the score, in that it was scored based on agreement with the claim, and that agreement was withdrawn.

An error in computing is when you agree on the result, but make a mistake in what the score is, such as using the wrong vulnerability.

Here they agreed on the result (since they accepted the claim), computed and entered the score correctly for that result, then later withdrew the acceptance.

#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-December-01, 19:57

And how do you get from withdrawn acceptance to revoke not established?
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#11 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2018-December-02, 15:48

View Postblackshoe, on 2018-December-01, 19:57, said:

And how do you get from withdrawn acceptance to revoke not established?


Via 63A4

A revoke is established ...

4. when agreement is established (as per Law 69A) to an opponent’s claim or concession; the
offending side having raised no objection to it before the end of the round, or before
making a call on a subsequent board.

When you don't read 63A1

A revoke is established ...

1. when the offender or his partner leads or plays to the following trick (any such play, legal or
illegal, establishes the revoke).
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
No one ever becomes a TD because of the money. They do it because they want to help bridge flourish in their club, region or nation.
Getting rid of one rude player might result in the arrival of four pleasant ones.
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#12 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-December-04, 18:16

But agreement was established - and then they changed their minds. Are you sure that changes the situation?
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#13 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2018-December-05, 11:23

View Postblackshoe, on 2018-December-04, 18:16, said:

But agreement was established - and then they changed their minds. Are you sure that changes the situation?

Are we at cross purposes here - There isn't a revoke on this thread - so you have asked a question and I have replied based on another thread. (I think).

As mentioned - if the claim is agreed and then acceptance is withdrawn within the timescale in 63A4. At this point it appears that the TD has to adjudicate the claim, based on the defenders having revoked - but able to correct it.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
No one ever becomes a TD because of the money. They do it because they want to help bridge flourish in their club, region or nation.
Getting rid of one rude player might result in the arrival of four pleasant ones.
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#14 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-December-05, 17:44

View Postweejonnie, on 2018-December-05, 11:23, said:

Are we at cross purposes here - There isn't a revoke on this thread - so you have asked a question and I have replied based on another thread. (I think).

As mentioned - if the claim is agreed and then acceptance is withdrawn within the timescale in 63A4. At this point it appears that the TD has to adjudicate the claim, based on the defenders having revoked - but able to correct it.

You're right. I got the threads confused. Sorry about that. As to whether I agree with your last point, I'm not sure, and right now I'm too tired to try to sort it out.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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