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Is impossible negative still a viable option-Precision

#1 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 11:39

8+ 4441 hands responding to strong 1 cause problems if 1M responses promises a 5+ card suit.
Using the impossible negative 1-1 in addition to hands with 0-7 hcp includes all 4441 with 8+ hcp later jumping in singleton or sometimes NT to show strong hand. Having the negative bid include strong hands caused problems. The normal solution is to use jump responses to show 4441 hands which account for about 2% of possible GF responses.
I have seen people use 1 bid to handle all 4441 handle. Have also seen fairly often people using 2 or 4 bids to show the 4441 hands.
Have even seen people use 8 bids, but they were using 4-bids whose use is pretty rare anyways so no loss.

Bidding has improved since the 1970's when the impossible negative was used.
In normal bidding it is not uncommon to have 2 ranges for splinter's.
Applying this method to impossible negatives you can use 1 bid to show an unnamed splinter with 6-7 hcp and jumps to show an impossible negative.
One knock against the impossible negative was it was hard to differentiate between a maximum negative and an impossible negative.
Here is scheme after 1-1-1
2 - 11+ hcp & 3+ controls 1-4-4-4 strong impossible negative four hearts and a singleton spade GF
2NT: 8+ hcp 4-1-4-4 impossible negative with singleton heart
3: 11+ hcp & 3+ controls 4-4-4-1 strong impossible negative four hearts and a singleton club.
3: 11+ hcp & 3+ controls 4-4-1-4 strong impossible negative fourhearts and a singleton diamond.
3: 5-7 hcp four+ hearts and an unnamed singleton or void.
………..3NT: relay for shortness, 4H=short spades
3NT: 8-10 hcp or 11+ hcp <3 controls 1-4-4-4 impossible negative four hearts and a singleton inspades.
4: 8-10 hcp or 11+ hcp <3 controls 4-4-4-1impossible negative fourhearts and a singleton in clubs.
4: 8-10 hcp or 11+ hcp <3 controls 4-4-1-4 impossible negative four hearts and a singleton in diamonds.

The bigger problem is after interference if the bidding has gone 1-(P)-1
Interference is likely to occur in responders singleton possibly with a raise by overcaller's partner. So, bidding may get high.
If not too high responder can make a normal cue-bid with 5-7 or 6-7 hcp and 0-2 cards in suit shown.
With an impossible negative 8+ hcp and singleton in shown suit responder can do a jump cue-bid to show 4441.

If interference is not in responder's singleton it is more difficult to distinguish between 6-7 maximum negative and 8+ impossible negative.
Double showing values is the likely bid one must make.
But remember opener has a chance to bid. If opener bids a suit responder has a fit with, responder may be able to show fit in a forceful manner (likely a non-jump cue-bid with a follow-up bid).
If opener bids responder's singleton responder can bid some number of NT or make a penalty double to show an impossible negative.

So, my point is that there is an alternative to using 4 bids for a rare possibility.
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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 12:07

I'm not a fan. Having positive responses in 1 is just asking for trouble - although if it were legal in ACBL-land I could convert to Moscito style where all the POSITIVE hands go into 1 and 1 is the bad bid.

These days I'm playing SMP, which is basically Meck-lite.

All 8+ hands go through either 1 (Nebulous 8-11), with various followups, or in this case a direct 1-2 is a 4441 12+

Pretty easy to learn as relays are kept to a minimum and most auctions develop naturally. The 1 over 1 is a big win for keep things low on simple hands, and overall the system just works well. 1 is 2+ and 2 is 6+.

It's just a good pragmatic system that works well in the current meta. (e.g. frequent overcalls) and keeps mad science to a minimum.

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1771401796
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#3 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 12:30

View PostTylerE, on 2018-November-26, 12:07, said:

although if it were legal in ACBL-land I could convert to Moscito style where all the POSITIVE hands go into 1 and 1 is the bad bid.
As long as 1 promises 15 hcp 1 as your negative is fine in ACBLland.
Any responses are allowed as long as you keep strength up. This was true for GCC and is now true even in Basic+ under new charts.
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#4 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 13:48

View PostTylerE, on 2018-November-26, 12:07, said:

I'm not a fan. Having positive responses in 1 is just asking for trouble - although if it were legal in ACBL-land I could convert to Moscito style where all the POSITIVE hands go into 1 and 1 is the bad bid.

These days I'm playing SMP, which is basically Meck-lite.

All 8+ hands go through either 1 (Nebulous 8-11), with various followups, or in this case a direct 1-2 is a 4441 12+

Pretty easy to learn as relays are kept to a minimum and most auctions develop naturally. The 1 over 1 is a big win for keep things low on simple hands, and overall the system just works well. 1 is 2+ and 2 is 6+.

It's just a good pragmatic system that works well in the current meta. (e.g. frequent overcalls) and keeps mad science to a minimum.

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1771401796


Concur with the above -- unless playing something like IMPrecision (which uses 1 for the really strong positive hands) -- it's much better to not have any positive responses in 1. BTW, my preferred version of SMP is the Grue-Moss version which uses 1 for the 12+ hands, with 8-11 showing suits directly. IMO, it's better than the other way around, albeit at the cost of slightly increased memory load. Their version also allows symmetric relays (at +1 or so), should the need arise, while keeping the option of bidding naturally with unbalanced hands.
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 14:06

If opps preempt, the jump required to show the impossible negative may take us beyond 3nt.
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#6 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 14:25

Currently, I'm seeing systems that don't use the impossible negative. Instead, they replace all the immediate 3 level bids to fill that void. For instance, one treatment I've seen is: 3c = 8-11, black singleton 4441; 3d = 8-11, red singleton 4441; 3h = 12+, 4-1-4-4; 3s = 12+, 1-4-4-4; 4c = 12+, 4-4-4-1; 4d = 12+, 4-4-1-4. This differentiates hands that just want to force to game, and hands with real slam potential. The 6-7 point 4441 hands you can start with 1d, then bid aggressively from there. For the 3c/3d bid, opener can make a step bid as a relay to find the singleton.
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#7 User is offline   etha 

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Posted 2018-December-10, 10:41

There are quite a few relay methods where 1 is still negative and doesn't include the 4441 hands.


For example the old moscito relayed with 1 = 4+ spades, 1= 4+ hearts etc. This avoids declarers hand being known mostly.

Versace on the rare occasions he plays precision also has 1 being spades.


meckwell in 2006 at least have 1 as negative only with 2 through 4 used for 3 suiters.



So I think it seems most have moved the 4441's out of 1.


Muller de wijs and Tarzan precision also did away with it.



Another thing you have to decide on is whether 1 1 1 uncontested shows just a good hand, or hearts and balanced, or just hearts.
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#8 User is offline   etha 

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Posted 2018-December-10, 10:47

if you want to keep the impossible negatives in. Reese thought exactly as you do in precision bidding and precision play he wrote "I feel it is uneconomical to devote so may sequences to them"



He proposed over 1 to use 2nt for all of the impossible negatives.
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