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RKCB Bid leads to missed slam

#1 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 01:38

Dear all

I try to avoid getting upset with GIB since I understand its stochastic nature, the simulations it uses, and it doesnt usually let me down if I bid accurately. But when you come to RKCB it is not a matter of simulation of candidate bids, its a matter of strict rules.

Exhibit A below scored me a measly 47% for 5+2 instead of 86% for 6+1 or even a chance of exploring grand.

Surely the correct bid in RKCB here is 5NT not 5S to show the keycards and the void which may have been enough to explore Grand

Of course I should have known the erroneous response meant to proceed to 6 and on another day I would. :(



Hoping I am correctly reporting an error but I believe it is an error in two ways, firstly saying it had Q trumps and secondly not showing the void

Regards P

PS What I find curious is that GIB has previously correctly used the 5NT response with me :(
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#2 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 02:53

I don't know how GIB decides when it should and when it shouldn't show a void.

But having decided not to show the void, for whatever reason, 5 is the correct bid, not 5. When you have a 10 card fit, you "show the queen", since a ten card fit doesn't have a deep loser (which is what the purpose of asking for the queen is).

So by bidding 5, GIB is telling you it has a 5th spade. You can then safely bid 6.

Maybe GIB is programmed to think that showing a 5th spade is more important than a heart void. No idea.
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#3 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 03:50

I'm not sure I agree. There are two possible correct bids. Two key cards without queen or even number of key cards with void.

I know you are an expert Stephen but don't try to push authority on this. 5S was erroneous

Also this is the GIB bugs forum and I play according to system and description from GIB. ,

We are talking primary school level programming errors not complex bridge here

RegardsP
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#4 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 04:37

GIB answers X with queen when it has 5+ carder fit, this is how it is programmed. It's not some crazy idea smerriman came up with, this is a fact.

This post has been edited by diana_eva: 2018-November-22, 06:29


#5 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 05:00

View Postdiana_eva, on 2018-November-22, 04:37, said:

GIB answers X with queen when it has 5+ carder fit, this is how it is programmed. It's not some crazy idea smerriman came up with, this is a fact.


Diane

Read the description on the bid please. Stop ganging up and attacking me. I'm sick of the lot of you and your constant attacks

Read the bid description and read about RKCB

Seems nobody understands the system.

I'm reporting an error. It would be good if somebody actually acknowledged it instead of this constant ad hominem attack and argument by authority

regards P
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#6 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 05:12

I looked at this before any replies - I am no authority on robots as I don't play with or against them - and worked out in my own mind that GIB replied 5 because it held extra length, which diana has now confirmed. You easily reach the slam, even the grand, in s if North replies either with a 4 splinter on the second round of bidding, or alternatively some partnerships use a 4 bid here to confirm as trumps, and to show a solid suit out side the trump suit. Obviously the robot bids differently.

And yes, if I was unfamiliar with specialist quirks of bidding, I would be scratching my head as to why the robot had misinformed me with a bid of 5 too.
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#7 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 06:28

View Postthepossum, on 2018-November-22, 05:00, said:

Diane

Read the description on the bid please. Stop ganging up and attacking me. I'm sick of the lot of you and your constant attacks

Read the bid description and read about RKCB

Seems nobody understands the system.

I'm reporting an error. It would be good if somebody actually acknowledged it instead of this constant ad hominem attack and argument by authority

regards P


What is the error you are reporting?

Is it that robot has shown the queen of trumps when it doesn't have it, or something else?

#8 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 06:54

View Postthepossum, on 2018-November-22, 03:50, said:

There are two possible correct bids. Two key cards without queen or even number of key cards with void.


Not so. If the GIB has been programmed to show the Queen when it knows of a 10+ card fit--like here--then a response of 5 to "show the Queen" is correct. It should also, by way of inference, indicate a longer Diamond suit, therefore six cards. GIB apparently thought this information to be a higher priority. To show two keycards without the Queen would never cross my mind here, because, quite simply, it would not be correct.

To suggest that Diana "read about RKCB" merely exposes your own ignorance about a rather basic element of the treatment.

Finally, I see no ad hominem nor argument by authority. Merely an attempt to convey information about an oft-used treatment that you seem to lack. I would suggest you read about RKCB.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin
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#9 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 06:56

View Postthepossum, on 2018-November-22, 05:00, said:

Diane

Read the description on the bid please. Stop ganging up and attacking me. I'm sick of the lot of you and your constant attacks

Read the bid description and read about RKCB

Seems nobody understands the system.

I'm reporting an error. It would be good if somebody actually acknowledged it instead of this constant ad hominem attack and argument by authority

regards P

This isn't a robot thing, it's an RKCB thing. It is standard to show the queen of trumps even without it, so long as you can guarantee a 10-card fit. It is standard to say "5S shows the queen of trumps and two keycards" when asked about it at the table. Everything about the bid and description is standard except the fact that GIB has bypassed showing the heart void.
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#10 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 07:07

View Postthepossum, on 2018-November-22, 05:00, said:


Read the description on the bid please. Stop ganging up and attacking me. I'm sick of the lot of you and your constant attacks



Possum

You asked a question.
Diana provided a simple, factual, and accurate response that can hardly be considered an attack.

At least on this side of the pond, a response to a "Queen ask" means "You don't need to worry that the Queen is missing.
It can mean EITHER that the trump queen is present OR that responder has extra Trump length so we should be able to pick up the missing queen.

Quote

and argument by authority


This feels like one of those cases where you want an authoritative answer [what does the code do]
After all, did you not just say "The idea of bridge is that of agreement with a partner and clarity of explanation to opponents"
Diana is telling you precisely what your partner's bid means

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It would be good if somebody actually acknowledged it instead of this constant ad hominem attack


As a rule, I've always felt that when people on the internet start complaining about ad hominem attacks, what they are really asking for is equal opportunity for the stupid...

Complaint's about this are a great signal that the individual who is posting has recognized that

  • They've destroyed their personal credibility
  • People are starting to treat them as a joke or an annoyance

Alderaan delenda est
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#11 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 10:39

Why are you bidding RKC if you aren't willing to bid 6 with a total of 4KC + Q trump? If you are expecting every keycard just to bid 6, you shouldn't be using RKC.

This one is 100% on you.

I would also add that since you had a cuebidding auction and buypassed showing a control to bid 4N (and thus implying a control), a void should not be considered a working void.

If was your concern you would bid 4 over 4, not 4NT.
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#12 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 12:33

View Postthepossum, on 2018-November-22, 03:50, said:

I'm not sure I agree. There are two possible correct bids. Two key cards without queen or even number of key cards with void.

I know you are an expert Stephen but don't try to push authority on this. 5S was erroneous

Also this is the GIB bugs forum and I play according to system and description from GIB. ,

We are talking primary school level programming errors not complex bridge here

RegardsP

This is why you get so many responses here. Are you really trying to improve or not? Someone here gave you a constructive, factual answer that was completely correct, and you summarily dismiss it as wrong. If you are going to reject everyone's advice because you already know the right answer, why are you even posting the question?
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#13 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 13:32

View Postthepossum, on 2018-November-22, 03:50, said:

I'm not sure I agree. There are two possible correct bids. Two key cards without queen or even number of key cards with void.

I know you are an expert Stephen but don't try to push authority on this. 5S was erroneous

We are talking primary school level programming errors not complex bridge here

RegardsP


I am not an expert in the slightest.

I was also not aware of this until a couple of years ago, where I posted on the forum and received helpful responses that told me why I was wrong. When I got such responses, I thanked the responders for their advice, realised it made complete sense, and learnt from it.

If you want to ignore any advice you get in the forum, then feel free to use references outside of the forum:

http://www.d17acbl.o...rkc-3-queen-ask

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If you know that our side has at least ten cards in our suit - if, playing five card majors, you have five or more cards in our major - it’s as good as having the queen, so go ahead and show it.


http://www.bridgeweb...20BLACKWOOD.htm

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5 - 2 (or 5) with the queen of trumps (or its equivalent – e.g. a 5-card suit implying a probable 10-card fit))


http://web.mit.edu/m...s/Crosswood.pdf

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2 or 5 keycards, with the queen of trump (or extra length that gu arantees a 10 - card fit)


https://books.google...n%20ask&f=false

Quote

It is interesting to note that, in case when one player can ascertain that a 10-card trump fit exists, the queen of trump is considered to be held even if it isn't, because two rounds of trumps will draw all the outstanding trumps in a very high percentage of the cases.

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#14 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 14:10

Also, tweak the hands slightly:



If you bid Blackwood and GIB responds 5, denying the queen, then you are forced to sign off in 5, since you are missing a keycard and the queen of trumps. But you make 6 easily, since the queen of trumps turns out to be irrelevant.

That is one example where 5 gives a better result than 5. If you believe GIB should respond 5, I challenge you to name a single hand where you're better off in slam when partner has the queen, and out of slam when partner has 5 card support. Just one.
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#15 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 14:40

It's very easy to construct a single hand; just be missing an ace, and someone holds qjx trumps. Or qxx and you guess wrong which honor to cash first. Or I suppose you meant without knowing the opps cards, where the question is whether you want to be in slam.

But anyway the idea is to show the q with ten card fit because 78 percent the suit splits 2-1, and half the rest of the time (if not missing j also) you'll still pick it up, which is way good enough to justify bidding grands if no outside losers or small with one. If 3-0 offside tough luck.
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 14:49

View PostStephen Tu, on 2018-November-22, 14:40, said:

But anyway the idea is to show the q with ten card fit because 78 percent the suit splits 2-1, and half the rest of the time (if not missing j also) you'll still pick it up, which is way good enough to justify bidding grands if no outside losers or small with one. If 3-0 offside tough luck.

It also gives useful inference about the rest of the hand, in this case that the diamonds must be 6-card and pretty good too, with shortage or void in the remaining suits.

The only thing wrong with GIB here is the explanation.
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#17 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 17:03

View Postpescetom, on 2018-November-22, 14:49, said:

The only thing wrong with GIB here is the explanation.

Out of interest, IRL, do you say 'queen or a 10-card fit' each time you're asked to describe the bid?
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#18 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-November-22, 19:35

View PostTylerE, on 2018-November-22, 10:39, said:

since you had a cuebidding auction and buypassed showing a control to bid 4N (and thus implying a control), a void should not be considered a working void.

I don't think this is correct. It is normal to bid 4NT with a second round control (as the_possum had here) and the void is still working.
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#19 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-November-23, 03:53

View Postsmerriman, on 2018-November-22, 17:03, said:

Out of interest, IRL, do you say 'queen or a 10-card fit' each time you're asked to describe the bid?

I certainly do when holding the queen myself :) And I usually would in any case. I'm more likely to omit mentioning the possibility of 5 key cards, which has never yet happened.
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#20 User is offline   zhasbeen 

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Posted 2018-November-23, 09:12

Agree with TylerE. Just bid 4S after 4D. You said your piece with 4C bid. GIB would probably have put you in 6 if you had done it that way.

That said, I can understand why you thought 5NT was correct bid since in System Notes it says "5NT An even number of keycards plus an unspecified void."
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