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Strong 2 Diamonds open 18-19 and balanced

#1 User is offline   robiche 

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Posted 2018-November-10, 16:39

hi, my friend introduced me to a strong 2 diamonds open with 18-19 points and balanced.....it does make sense

Opener = 2 diamonds 18-19 points HCP
Responder = 2 Hearts 0-6 points or 2 Spades 7+ points
Opener rebids = 2NT
Responder = Stayman, Transfer or Pass

she is not aware of a name (convention) for this


please comment.....

thanks

Éloi
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-November-10, 17:17

It's the Mexican 2, but not normally with those responses
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#3 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2018-November-10, 17:27

Try transfer responses.

Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canape is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded)

NOW playing a Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes-Millennium like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT with Keri Invites and Intermediate 2 bids (10-14), & 15+ 1 opener with transfer negatives @ 1-level & transfer positives @ the 2- and 3-levels. Canape after opening 1 or 1 (into a minor suit only). Playing Naturelle in another partnership.

Looking for an ACBL District 7 Strong Club Partner - September 2018
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-November-10, 21:27

I've seen those neg pos responses. They don't make much sense opposite what is essentially a 1.5NT bid.
Transfers make more sense to make use of the fact one hand is limited and you can often place the contract and let big hand play it.

I suspect the people using a negative/positive approach may also including other hand type into 2. Like a strong hand for example.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2018-November-10, 23:07

As Cyberyeti rightly says, it is the Mexican 2, but to me - just a personal opinion - it is just a waste of a bid for one type of hand. I prefer using 2 as a Multi where it can show weak hands and strong.

The reason behind this is simple: most natural systems (Acol, SAYC, 2/1) play a 2NT rebid in the range of 17-19 already. If partner has enough to respond, 5-6+ HCPs, you won't be missing games anyway, and the same applies to the Mexican 2. A 18-19 balanced hand can be opened at the one level and constructive bidding can take place if responder has enough to bid.

The only very, slight advantage it has is if opener is 4432 and 18-19 in a five card major system, and has to open one of a minor in a three card suit, and responder is too weak to bid, and the opponents do not have enough to balance, and you are left to play at the one level in that minor. Or alternatively, opener opens one of a minor with a four card suit, and again responder doesn't have enough to bid, and there's a better fit in a major suit available. But statistically that happens rarely.

But as I say with everyone who plays this game, it's your system and if you feel happy playing a Mexican 2 that's your choice.

And welcome to the forum :)
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#6 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2018-November-11, 13:44

View PostThe_Badger, on 2018-November-10, 23:07, said:

As Cyberyeti rightly says, it is the Mexican 2, but to me - just a personal opinion - it is just a waste of a bid for one type of hand. I prefer using 2 as a Multi where it can show weak hands and strong.

The reason behind this is simple: most natural systems (Acol, SAYC, 2/1) play a 2NT rebid in the range of 17-19 already. If partner has enough to respond, 5-6+ HCPs, you won't be missing games anyway, and the same applies to the Mexican 2. A 18-19 balanced hand can be opened at the one level and constructive bidding can take place if responder has enough to bid.

The only very, slight advantage it has is if opener is 4432 and 18-19 in a five card major system, and has to open one of a minor in a three card suit, and responder is too weak to bid, and the opponents do not have enough to balance, and you are left to play at the one level in that minor. Or alternatively, opener opens one of a minor with a four card suit, and again responder doesn't have enough to bid, and there's a better fit in a major suit available. But statistically that happens rarely.

But as I say with everyone who plays this game, it's your system and if you feel happy playing a Mexican 2 that's your choice.

And welcome to the forum :)

That isn't the sole advantage - in the sequence 1m - 1M, 2NT rebids can now be used for the bridge world death hand and its associates - that is, a good hand with 6m3M. That can be quite the useful tool to have on hand. Competitively I'm told it can be good to know opener doesn't have 18-19 balanced as well, though I've never played this in an otherwise standard system and don't know how often that purported benefit comes up.

The original Mexican 2!D, though it changed a fair bit, was practically essential for Romex to function - the system was comprehensively designed to have limited 1-level suit openings, after all, and its unnatural 1NT open meant that without the 2 open to take off the slack balanced hands might be difficult to efficiently bid. In more standard systems it's a bit of a bolt-on, even if it isn't one without merit.

As for whether it has enough merit to be worth playing... eh. Lauria-Versace played (play?) it, I recall that. Bocchi uses 2 as 18-19 balanced, which seems a far more effective opening to use for it than 2, even if it means normal 2 openers have less space. With the responses above? It's garbage, alas.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-November-11, 14:05

Hi Robiche, welcome to the forum!

The 2 opening is useful as the 18-19 balanced hands can otherwise be awkward in some contested auctions. It also frees up the 2NT rebid (after a 1m opening) for other uses.

Maybe the biggest advantage is that when you open 1m and subsequently makes a reopening double or a strong raise of partner's suit, partner knows that your have an unbalanced hand.

The 2 response is best played as a puppet to 2. Responder should not be showing points, as they know opener's points and can therefore just decide to bid game or not.

2 is a puppet to 2NT.

2NT is a puppet to 3.

3 can be used for some weak hand that can't be covered by any of the puppets.

3 is a transfer to hearts.
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-November-11, 14:19

As people have stated, having the 2N rebid usable as something other than 18-19 balanced is really useful, we use it as GF unbalanced for example, but we achieve this not by using Mexican 2, but because we play weak NT we simply widen the range of the 1N rebid and use Crowhurst rather than simple checkback.
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#9 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2018-November-11, 14:36

The real benefit of the Mexican 2 is when it does not come up, but it is removed from the set of hands you need to describe in a competitive auction. Lauria said that it is not an elegant part of the system when it does come up and I expect the other Italians who play it agree.
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-November-11, 15:58

View Postpaulg, on 2018-November-11, 14:36, said:

The real benefit of the Mexican 2 is when it does not come up, but it is removed from the set of hands you need to describe in a competitive auction. Lauria said that it is not an elegant part of the system when it does come up and I expect the other Italians who play it agree.


Not many Italians play it any more, and most agree that the developments were tough to remember. But they say it had some real benefits when it does come up: for example, it frees up a 2NT rebid to show neat things like a single-suit reverse, reverse with fit in responder's suit, multi including these two meanings and others besides.
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#11 User is offline   heart76 

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Posted 2018-December-04, 15:42

I got a bottom last week at the club opposite the only (very advanced) pair that has this 2D opening. Responder bid 2H to play which made.
All the others played 1C since responder is too weak to bid (3 HCP?).
Awful (for me). But I suspect the reason for having this vs. e.g. a strong 1C opening system is, as other posters say, the rebids you free up.
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#12 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2018-December-07, 04:31

I played this for a while in order to remove these hands from our Swedish Club opening. I think the benefits are greater in a natural system though. As a side note I've also seen people put these hands into their strong 2C opening: opening 2C shows 18-19 NT or any GF.

We played the following responses to the 2D opening:

Pass = Weak with diamonds.
2H = 4+ spades, may be weak. Not 4 hearts if GF. Opener bids 2S with 2-3 spades and 2NT with 4 spades.
2S = To play 2NT/3NT, or a GF hand with 4+ hearts (not 4 spades).
2NT = Puppet to 3C. Weak with clubs, or weak with hearts, or any slam invitational single-suiter, or balanced slam invitational.
3C = Stayman, has 4-4 majors or 5+ spades and 4 hearts.
3D = 5+ hearts and 4 spades.
3M = GF with short major and both minors.
3NT = GF with 5-5 majors.
4m = Transfer to major.
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#13 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-December-09, 03:41

I figured out something almost identical to Kungsgeten's structure. I would prefer to take the singe-suited with a minor out of 2NT to avoid wrongsiding. 3 seems a bit underloaded so maybe the single-suited hands with diamonds could go into 3?
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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