[pescetom]

wuudturner, on 2018-November-11, 04:47, said:

I can accept the bid of 3♡ on a 5 card suit. .

OT, but how are you inserting the hearts symbol in your post?
It doesn't visualise correctly when browsing the forum with Chrome on a Windows 10 PC, although it does show up under Android or if I reply to your message.

[pescetom]

PhilG007, on 2018-November-11, 03:04, said:

Are the opponents playing strong intermediate or weak jump overcalls? There's a different action for each of them.What's worring me about this deal is that North,the preemptor's partner hasn't yet spoken and,for me,that spells danger.The red light is flashing. Fools rush in......

Weak jump overcalls. Opponents are inexperienced, South having more promise than North.

[msjennifer]

Sir, the openers hand will surely have a fit either in diamonds or hearts or he may have say AQ in clubs.M y hand has only six losers and I shall not stop short of game.If opener has a decent 6 card spade suit then I have enough support in my Kx to raise to 4S. To leave the outside possibility of even 3NT my bid is a straight forward 3H.In my personal opinion 3H is not an overbid.with the present hand.Missing the King of spades I would make a Negative double as I just can't think of a noncompetitive pass.

[Cyberyeti]

msjennifer, on 2018-November-11, 08:37, said:

Sir, the openers hand will surely have a fit either in diamonds or hearts or he may have say AQ in clubs.M y hand has only six losers and I shall not stop short of game.If opener has a decent 6 card spade suit then I have enough support in my Kx to raise to 4S. To leave the outside possibility of even 3NT my bid is a straight forward 3H.In my personal opinion 3H is not an overbid.with the present hand.Missing the King of spades I would make a Negative double as I just can't think of a noncompetitive pass.

The problem with 3♥ is what do you expect partner to do with say, Axxxx, Qx, AQxx, xx ? 4♥ may well play really badly but you're headed there rather than 5♦ which has play when partner thinks you have something more like 5 good hearts and an 11 count.

[helene_t]

I slightly prefer 3♥. If I double I will have to pass a 3NT bid without having shown my fifth heart. I am also not thrilled at the prospect of opener passing the double.

3♥ might backfire if opener is 5233 with three small clubs and decides to raise on a doubleton. But probably he should bid 4♣ with that. And it's not like he has great options over a double either.

With opener's hand I think I would just bid 3♦ although it is obviously close. But if I want to show extra values, I prefer 4♣ to 4♦ with this shape. Is that crazy? Would 4♣ suggest better spades?

[pescetom]

So some preferences for 3♥ by West and 3♦ by East over double are emerging, no surprise.
Let's give it another morning when all are back at their desks

I confess I was also curious if people play some exotic gadget that would enable them to show 5-5 in West, or a game force ask by East. I have one partner who in West would probably pretend that 3NT must be 5-5, as wishing to play with a clubs stop he could have doubled then rebid 3NT. I can also imagine someone cue bidding 4♣ in East over double, hoping to hear 4♥. Both bids could be conventionalised more precisely by an ambitious partnership, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are others.

[dsLawsd]

Negative double over 3C.
At matchpoints I bid 4♥ and at Imps 3♦but those choices will be influenced by the relative aggressiveness of partner.

The opponents might take a phantom save over 4♥and it figures to make fairly often since partner should hold either an unbalanced hand or latent support for spades.

[cleveritis]

Double is mandatory on the 2551 hand, were my hearts more concentrated kx, KQT9x,Qxxxx,x I would bid 3H (although even then, double could be much better)... what to do over 3D, 3H, or 3S is trickier.. I would bid 4D or 4H... 3S might be a hand stuck for a bid 5233 which doesnt fancy 3D - I would pass that I think.

On the other hand a reopening double isn't marvelous - but you sort of have to do it playing take out doubles.

Double in both cases keeps all contracts - ESP including 3Cx, 3N, 3S, and 4D as possible contracts, 3H can get a disgusting result (esp if pard 5152 and does not have the values for 4 forcing diamonds)

[pescetom]

Here is the full hand and actual bidding:

---

The scores (including ours) were:
4 x 4♥=
1 x 5♦=
1 x 3♠+1
1 x 3♦+2
1 x 5♣!-1
1 x 5♣-1

I was surprised that almost half the field had beaten us by finding 4♥, hence the topic.
I guess some Wests bid 3♥ and others found ♥ after North raised to 4♣.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2018-November-12, 16:36, said:

Here is the full hand and actual bidding:

---

The scores (including ours) were:
4 x 4♥=
1 x 5♦=
1 x 3♠+1
1 x 3♦+2
1 x 5♣!-1
1 x 5♣-1

I was surprised that almost half the field had beaten us by finding 4♥, hence the topic.
I guess some Wests bid 3♥ and others found ♥ after North raised to 4♣.

If you bid 4♥ over 4♦ aren't you saying "I'm bidding 5♦ but I have a 5th heart" on the principle of game before slam ?

Also shouldn't S bid 4♣ and N raise to 5 at these colours

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-November-12, 17:56, said:

If you bid 4♥ over 4♦ aren't you saying "I'm bidding 5♦ but I have a 5th heart" on the principle of game before slam ?

Also shouldn't S bid 4♣ and N raise to 5 at these colours

The way West bids, 4♥ over 4♦ would show a hand that wanted to bid ♥ on the first round but was too strong to do so - technically non forcing, but still enough to tempt East into a disastrous slam investigation.

South's natural bid would be 4♣, but I can see why some might prefer 3♣ here. It's North's silence that is really mysterious.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2018-November-13, 08:02, said:

The way West bids, 4♥ over 4♦ would show a hand that wanted to bid ♥ on the first round but was too strong to do so - technically non forcing, but still enough to tempt East into a disastrous slam investigation.

Really ? with a forcing 3♥ also available, and 4♥ also

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-November-13, 11:11, said:

Really ? with a forcing 3♥ also available, and 4♥ also

4♥ would be interdictive, particularly at this vulnerability.