BBO Discussion Forums: Inverted Minors - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Inverted Minors

#1 User is offline   jerdonald 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 112
  • Joined: 2011-July-27

Posted 2018-November-07, 22:15


BBO forum,
In an acbl club game today my partner opened 1C and
since we play inverted minors I bid 2 clubs with:

S 6
H 8764
D Q63
C AKQ72

Normally I would mention my 4 card major but I didn't
like the 4 heart spots and partner could have some
5,3,3,2 hand. We ended up in 4H and when I boarded
my hand the OPS were upset that I didn't bid 1H.

After the play I explained that partner opening 1C
doesn't always mean he is asking for a 4+ card major
and I realize I could have bid 1 heart and then
retreated to clubs but it's not mandatory that I bid
a 4 card major when playing inverted minors.

Any comments?

Jerryd

0

#2 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,659
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2018-November-07, 22:57

For your partner. Do you have an agreement that you are allowed to use your judgement and not show a poor major? Then your fine.
If raising a minor 100% denies a 4-card major then you violated your agreement.

As to your opponents unless they asked they drew their own conclusions.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#3 User is offline   HardVector 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 111
  • Joined: 2018-May-28

Posted 2018-November-08, 02:02

The normal "standard" agreement for inverted minors is that it denies a 4 card major. The opps shouldn't have gotten upset because you were lying to your partner as well. The reason they were probably upset, was because you bid poorly (by denying the major) and then landed on your feet by stopping in 4h. By the way, you shouldn't be too worried about the poor heart suit if you look at your clubs. Your partner 1c opened missing all that in clubs, what do you think they have?
0

#4 User is offline   TylerE 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,219
  • Joined: 2006-January-30

Posted 2018-November-08, 14:16

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-November-07, 22:57, said:


As to your opponents unless they asked they drew their own conclusions.


A player is under no obligation to follow his own agreements. When it becomes problematic is when your partner starts expecting you to...
0

#5 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 969
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2018-November-08, 14:35

View Postjerdonald, on 2018-November-07, 22:15, said:

Any comments?



First comment, no need to increase size to post here :)
Second comment, if you play inverted minors then I imagine that 2 needs to be alerted, even in ACBLand.
Third comment, holding 5-cards in opener's suit, it would be unnatural (however usual) to show a major, not to show fit.
0

#6 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,632
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2018-November-08, 14:36

I don't know the alert rules in ACBL but I would find it strange if the possibility of a 4-card major makes 2 alertable. Anyway, you apparently don't have that agreement anyway so there is nothing to disclose.

Opps should not make that kind of nonsense complaints. If they really have an issue (which they don't have on this hand) they should call the TD instead of complaining to you.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- Tramticket
0

#7 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,164
  • Joined: 2008-September-10

Posted 2018-November-08, 15:03

View Posthelene_t, on 2018-November-08, 14:36, said:

I don't know the alert rules in ACBL but I would find it strange if the possibility of a 4-card major makes 2 alertable.


On the ACBL convention card, the checkbox for inverted minors (Forcing Single Raise) is in red which means it should be alerted (standard is non-forcing raise).
1

#8 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,632
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2018-November-08, 15:22

View Postjohnu, on 2018-November-08, 15:03, said:

On the ACBL convention card, the checkbox for inverted minors (Forcing Single Raise) is in red which means it should be alerted (standard is non-forcing raise).

That makes sense. It is alertable also in EBU and probably in New Zealand also (but not in the Netherlands).

However, when opps ask what it means, do you have to mention that it could include a 4-card major?
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- Tramticket
0

#9 User is offline   The_Badger 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 995
  • Joined: 2013-January-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, Chess, Film, Literature, Herbal Medicine, Nutrition

Posted 2018-November-08, 15:37

Jerry. It would be interesting to see your partner's hand and the bidding and the vulnerability here as I am puzzled how after 'denying a 4 card major' you have ended up in 4s. There's also the issue whether you play IM as a one round force or as a GF too.

Also, were the opponents upset because 1) They would have bid it differently 2) You were obliged to bid 1/1 with any 4 card major after a 1 opening 3) The result didn't go their way, etc., etc?

In my eyes you took a view, a personal view that you didn't want to bid such a poor suit. That's your prerogative surely?
0

#10 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,086
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2018-November-08, 21:43

A strong single raise and/or a preemptive double raise in the minors are both alertable in the ACBL.

If the opponents inquire, your partner must give an explanation of your agreement. If the agreement is that it shows 10+ value with 4+ cards and denies a 4 card major, then that is the explanation that must be given. If you as a player, for some reason, decide to violate that agreement, that's OK. BUT, if your partnership violates such an agreement with any regularity so that there may be a tacit understanding that you could be concealing a 4 card major, then that is improper. In that case, partner must include that information in the explanation -- "10+ value 4+ cards in the minor, but doesn't deny a 4 card major".

If the opponents don't ask, but assume you don't have a 4 card, that's their problem.
0

#11 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,680
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2018-November-09, 00:51

View Posthelene_t, on 2018-November-08, 14:36, said:

Opps should not make that kind of nonsense complaints. If they really have an issue (which they don't have on this hand) they should call the TD instead of complaining to you.


This is the best comment.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#12 User is offline   jerdonald 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 112
  • Joined: 2011-July-27

Posted 2018-November-09, 13:56

BBO forum,
My partner did alert my 2 club bid as showing 5+ clubs and
10+ points.

To The-Badger's comment my partner bid 2H over my 2C bid
I bid 3H and he went to 4H making.

Again I would almost always show a 4 card major with our
agreement but just didn't like my distribution and the
weak hearts so I thought 2C gave the most information
to partner.

Thanks for all the comments.

Jerryd

0

#13 User is offline   fromageGB 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,372
  • Joined: 2008-April-06

Posted 2018-November-10, 08:55

If partner would normally expect you to bid a 4 card major first, then the problem comes when he does have a 4 card heart suit but fails to mention it because he "knows" you don't. A similar problem is that he may be bidding a 3 card suit hoping that if you have spades guarded, you can bid NT. If you don't, you can revert to clubs. Now when you bid 3 or 4 you are going to rapidly get out of control, as you need to ruff spades.
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users