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Another insufficient bid 27B, 23A

#1 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-October-30, 12:21

Yesterday I was dealer and the first round went : 1 (pass) 1 (1) :blink:

Question 1. If I were to accept the insufficient bid, could I now bid 1 myself ? I assume yes, but just to be sure.

As it was, I refused the insufficient bid, RHO nodded and substituted it with Double. I decided that this probably did us less damage than substitution with 2 and so accepted it.

Question 2. In case of substitution of 1 with 2, I would be obliged to accept the bid, but we would still retain our right to an adjusted score if the Director decides we were damaged? That's how I understand Law 27, just to be sure.

Question 3. Was a substition of 1 with Double admissable? Law 27 B3 says that "except as provided in B1(b) above, if the offender attempts to substitute a double or a redouble for his insufficient bid the attempted call is cancelled.", and B1(b) says that "if the insufficient bid is corrected with a comparable call (see Law 23A) the auction proceeds without further rectification". So I guess it all comes down to 23 A1, "has the same or similar meaning as that attributable to the withdrawn call". In their agreement, Double here promises 4+card and playability in . That is certainly similar to 1, but is also a superset of the possible meanings, which seems contrary to the spirit of 23 A2.

Question 4. If the answer to 3 is no, would the Double be admissable had I initially passed instead of opening 1 ?
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#2 User is online   HardVector 

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Posted 2018-October-30, 12:39

View Postpescetom, on 2018-October-30, 12:21, said:

Yesterday I was dealer and the first round went : 1 (pass) 1 (1) :blink:

Question 1. If I were to accept the insufficient bid, could I now bid 1 myself ? I assume yes, but just to be sure.

As it was, I refused the insufficient bid, RHO nodded and substituted it with Double. I decided that this probably did us less damage than substitution with 2 and so accepted it.

Question 2. In case of substitution of 1 with 2, I would be obliged to accept the bid, but we would still retain our right to an adjusted score if the Director decides we were damaged? That's how I understand Law 27, just to be sure.

Question 3. Was a substition of 1 with Double admissable? Law 27 B3 says that "except as provided in B1(b) above, if the offender attempts to substitute a double or a redouble for his insufficient bid the attempted call is cancelled.", and B1(b) says that "if the insufficient bid is corrected with a comparable call (see Law 23A) the auction proceeds without further rectification". So I guess it all comes down to 23 A1, "has the same or similar meaning as that attributable to the withdrawn call". In their agreement, Double here promises 4+card and playability in . That is certainly similar to 1, but is also a superset of the possible meanings, which seems contrary to the spirit of 23 A2.

Question 4. If the answer to 3 is no, would the Double be admissable had I initially passed instead of opening 1 ?

1. Yes. My partner and I actually have an understanding that 1s here would be 3 card support and 2s with 4.

2. No. But you should notify the director as soon as the insufficient bid occurs, because in this instance, their partner is required to bid as if it was 2h and not 1h corrected. If the director feels that the partner of the offender bid inappropriately, they will adjust.

3. No. If the offender substitutes the bid for anything but a bid that indicates hearts (most of the time 2h), their partner is barred. At this time double is not allowed and is so stated in the rule governing this.

4. Still no. The bid is still insufficient and all the same rules apply.

P.S. I've been a director for 15 years now
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#3 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2018-October-30, 14:40

1: yes.
2: yes to both
3: canít be answered. You give insufficient information to answer the question of comparability. What was the IBíer thinking when he made the call, does double show both hearts and clubs in their system, if it was an overcall, how many hearts and how many hcp are shown etc. Itís up to the TD to decide whether the double is comparable and therefore admissible or not.
4: the same as 3.
This again makes clear that you need an independent director, who preferably knows his or her business. Directing by the players themselves is a sure way to problems, unless at least one of the players of each pair is a good TD and there is no other director available. But even then it can lead to a seriously unpleasant situation.
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-October-30, 15:11

You can see why double isn't even allowed here.
A clever partner could make an insufficient bid and not make it sufficient barring partner.
They instead substitute double ang get a penalty double that cant be pulled which might otherwise be takeout
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#5 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-October-30, 19:09

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-October-30, 15:11, said:

You can see why double isn't even allowed here.
A clever partner could make an insufficient bid and not make it sufficient barring partner.
They instead substitute double ang get a penalty double that cant be pulled which might otherwise be takeout


Sure, but then the TD just changes the score anyway after the hand, so there's little point.

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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-October-30, 19:57

As the player next to call over RHO's insufficient bid, you have two choices:

1. Accept the IB, make a call, and the auction proceeds without further rectification.
2. Call the Director.

There is no third choice. If someone has called attention to the IB, you have only one choice: call the Director.
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#7 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-October-31, 09:13

View Postblackshoe, on 2018-October-30, 19:57, said:

2. Call the Director.

Maybe I'm giving too much benefit of the doubt, but I interpreted the question as asking what the Director should rule when called, not about players making their own rulings.

#8 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-October-31, 11:25

View Postbarmar, on 2018-October-31, 09:13, said:

Maybe I'm giving too much benefit of the doubt, but I interpreted the question as asking what the Director should rule when called, not about players making their own rulings.

No, you're quite right.
Although the information below is useful too.

View Postblackshoe, on 2018-October-30, 19:57, said:

As the player next to call over RHO's insufficient bid, you have two choices:

1. Accept the IB, make a call, and the auction proceeds without further rectification.
2. Call the Director.

There is no third choice. If someone has called attention to the IB, you have only one choice: call the Director.

So if another player has called attention to the IB you can no longer simply accept the IB without calling the Director?
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-October-31, 11:51

View Postsanst, on 2018-October-30, 14:40, said:

3: can’t be answered. You give insufficient information to answer the question of comparability. What was the IB’er thinking when he made the call, does double show both hearts and clubs in their system, if it was an overcall, how many hearts and how many hcp are shown etc. It’s up to the TD to decide whether the double is comparable and therefore admissible or not.
4: the same as 3.

I did clarify what the double showed, and the rest of their agreements are fairly standard.
But let me hypothesise the entire information:
- 1 overcall shows 5+card, 8-17 HCP
- 2 non-jump overcall shows 6-card or good 5-card, 11-17 HCP
- double of 1 + 1 shows 4+card hearts and 3+card clubs, 8-17 HCP
- both sides NV
- IB'er was thinking that he needed to show his good 5-card hearts and that he was just strong enough to do so at the 1-level, forgetting that this would not be possible if his RHO did not pass.

What would you now decide about comparability, as TD?
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#10 User is online   pran 

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Posted 2018-October-31, 14:49

View Postpescetom, on 2018-October-31, 11:25, said:

So if another player has called attention to the IB you can no longer simply accept the IB without calling the Director?

Correct.
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#11 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2018-October-31, 15:13

View Postpescetom, on 2018-October-31, 11:51, said:

I did clarify what the double showed, and the rest of their agreements are fairly standard.
But let me hypothesise the entire information:
- 1 overcall shows 5+card, 8-17 HCP
- 2 non-jump overcall shows 6-card or good 5-card, 11-17 HCP
- double of 1 + 1 shows 4+card hearts and 3+card clubs, 8-17 HCP
- both sides NV
- IB'er was thinking that he needed to show his good 5-card hearts and that he was just strong enough to do so at the 1-level, forgetting that this would not be possible if his RHO did not pass.

What would you now decide about comparability, as TD?

2 show the same suit as the IB and doesn’t restrict the partner, who might use the information from the IB. The TD awards an AS afterwards if this leads to damage for the NOS. Double is not comparable - 4+card hearts and 3+card clubs, 8-17 HCP is not a subset of 5+card, 8-17 HCP - nor has it the same meaning or purpose and is therefore inadmissible. Any other sufficient call is allowed, as is pass, but silences partner.
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#12 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-November-01, 07:15

View Postsanst, on 2018-October-31, 15:13, said:

2 show the same suit as the IB and doesnít restrict the partner, who might use the information from the IB. The TD awards an AS afterwards if this leads to damage for the NOS. Double is not comparable - 4+card hearts and 3+card clubs, 8-17 HCP is not a subset of 5+card, 8-17 HCP - nor has it the same meaning or purpose and is therefore inadmissible. Any other sufficient call is allowed, as is pass, but silences partner.


Thanks, that's clear.
So what about question 4: if the bidding had gone P (P) 1 (1), would Double now be comparable? In this case, Double would be 4+card hearts 8-17 HCP without guaranteeing playability in the minors.
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#13 User is online   gordontd 

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Posted 2018-November-01, 10:29

View Postpescetom, on 2018-November-01, 07:15, said:

Thanks, that's clear.
So what about question 4: if the bidding had gone P (P) 1 (1), would Double now be comparable? In this case, Double would be 4+card hearts 8-17 HCP without guaranteeing playability in the minors.

I don't think I know anyone who plays double like that.
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Posted 2018-November-01, 15:31

View Postgordontd, on 2018-November-01, 10:29, said:

I don't think I know anyone who plays double like that.

Then you might not like to be my partner B-)
Our CC says that double over a major guarantees 4-card in the other major and suggests but does not promise playability in the remaining suits.
That's a masochistically honest version of how we and may others play it, although some profess otherwise and then claim that holding 4-card in the opponents' suit plus 3-2 in the minors was just an occasional deviation.
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#15 User is online   gordontd 

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Posted 2018-November-02, 01:30

View Postpescetom, on 2018-November-01, 15:31, said:

Then you might not like to be my partner B-)
Our CC says that double over a major guarantees 4-card in the other major and suggests but does not promise playability in the remaining suits.
That's a masochistically honest version of how we and may others play it, although some profess otherwise and then claim that holding 4-card in the opponents' suit plus 3-2 in the minors was just an occasional deviation.

So you would double with an 8-count with four hearts but not with a 1345 hand of opening strength , or a very strong balanced hand, or a very strong one-suited minor hand?
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-November-02, 02:59

View Postgordontd, on 2018-November-02, 01:30, said:

So you would double with an 8-count with four hearts but not with a 1345 hand of opening strength , or a very strong balanced hand, or a very strong one-suited minor hand?

Correct on the first two hands. I would also double 1H to show precisely 4-card spades. With the third and fourth I would double then bid, as you probably would (being beyond range to guarantee distribution).

The 3-card opening+ strength hands make for some heavy passes, difficult for both sides.
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#17 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2018-November-02, 05:21

View Postpescetom, on 2018-November-01, 07:15, said:

Thanks, that's clear.
So what about question 4: if the bidding had gone P (P) 1 (1), would Double now be comparable? In this case, Double would be 4+card hearts 8-17 HCP without guaranteeing playability in the minors.

This is answered by Ton Kooijman, WBFLC president, in his commentary to the 2017 Laws.

Quote

A take-out double normally does not show specified suits. When West opens 1♠ and North follows with 1♥, not accepted, we would not allow a change to double. We would allow a change to 2♥ with no further rectification. (If the convention card shows that such a double promises 4 hearts it is acceptable if the 1♥ opening bid - which North thought he was making Ė can be made with a 4-card suit, not if it promises a 5-card suit)

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Posted 2018-November-02, 08:23

View Postsanst, on 2018-November-02, 05:21, said:

This is answered by Ton Kooijman, WBFLC president, in his commentary to the 2017 Laws.

So double would be equivalent only if it shows 4-card and they were playing 4-card majors and player thought he was opening, not interfering. Thanks.
That's clear too, although one could argue that the difference in strength between 1 and 2 interference is more significant than the difference in length between 4+card and 5+card.
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#19 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2018-November-02, 15:31

View Postpescetom, on 2018-November-02, 08:23, said:

... one could argue that the difference in strength between 1 and 2 interference is more significant than the difference in length between 4+card and 5+card.

Thatís irrelevant. The Laws allow the lowest sufficient bid in the specified suit. The information from the withdrawn call is AI to partner, but the TD has award an AS is the NOS is damaged.
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Posted 2018-November-03, 10:48

View Postsanst, on 2018-November-02, 15:31, said:

Thatís irrelevant. The Laws allow the lowest sufficient bid in the specified suit. The information from the withdrawn call is AI to partner, but the TD has award an AS is the NOS is damaged.


Do you mean AI to partner of offender? He can use the knowledge that partner wished to bid at 1-level?
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