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Suggestions on continuations after doubling 1NT opening bid?

#1 User is offline   hirowla 

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Posted 2018-October-20, 05:33

Let's assume that you are defending 1NT openings (note: most of them will be 12-14 or 13-15 pts - against strong NT we play a different defense). Your agreement is that you may overcall in your suit with 5+ in the suit and 10+ pts, and that 13+ pts without a 5-card suit is a double.

What are some suggested continuations after partner has doubled. In both of the following sequences:

(1NT) - X - P - ? (this is the major one I'm interested in)
(1NT) - X - (some suit bid) - ? (this one can be easier as I can always pass if required).

One suggestion is that you treat partner as having opened 1NT with 13+ pts. What are your thoughts on this? Initially I don't like it as the type of hands you would pass on (i.e weak hands) are probably the ones you don't want to pass as that leaves the double in!

Any other suggestions for follow-up sequences?

Thanks,

Ian
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#2 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-October-20, 08:03

There are lots of different defences against a weak no trump. But most incorporate a penalty double and I feel that there is a lot of logic in a penalty double. The problem with doubling with 13+ is that partner will usually need to remove the double to a four-card suit if holding a weak balanced hand, with up to say 4-5 points. So in sequence one 2x = weak 4+ card suit, not a very useful sequence.

The advantage of a penalty double against a weak NT (apart from extracting a penalty) is that it limits the range for other conventional calls and helps judge whether game is still possible.

Note that overcalling on five-card suits is a risky strategy. Most would prefer to hold a six-card suit or a two-suiter suited hand.
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#3 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-October-20, 09:10

On the first one we play front of card as if we opened 1nt, stayman, transfers etc. If partner can't pass the double they may be either too weak or have a lot of shape with game ambitions ie. red vs white.

On the 2nd one we play negative doubles and lebensohl.
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#4 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2018-October-20, 13:46

Playing your normal 1NT structure when taking out partner's double isn't a good idea IMO.

When partner opens 1NT most of your bids are looking for greater things (game or even slam). Sometimes you take 1NT out to a better partial.

When partner doubles 1NT things are different. With most good hands there is no need to act - you will win enough by beating 1NT; if you have a shapely hand you can jump in your suit or bid 2NT to show a strong 5+5+ hand. With weak hands, however, you often have need to bid. Defending 1NT dbld usually isn't a great score when opps hold 23 pts. So your 2-level bids should be natural and weak. In borderline cases you might just pass hoping partner has more than minimum.

You might even get help from the opponents. If responder is obviously unhappy with the double, you should believe him and pass. If he is happy with the double, run.

If your opponents play artificial takeouts of 1NT doubled you may take advantage of that. If pass forces opener to redouble you may bid a 5-card suit immediately; lacking that you pass and if 1NT redoubled comes back you bid the lower of two 4-card suits.

Whatever method you choose, none will work on 100% of the hands.

BTW I would not double a weak NT on 13 pts, I would double on 15+ and some 14 counts. On weaker hands, either I have a (natural or conventional) overcall or I pass. Partner is expected to protect with a double with 11 or more pts.
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#5 User is offline   hirowla 

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Posted 2018-October-21, 03:48

Thanks for the replies so far. Iíll just clarify a few things mentioned above:
  • I agree that overcalling on a 5 card suit is risky. Iíll seen both good and bad results against me doing it. Donít know how how it works out overall. Iíve generally played you only overcall with 2 distribution points. So Iím seeing how it goes.
  • I think the 13 point level comes from it originally meaning ďI have a 1NT openingĒ in the Precision context - which is 13-15 pts.
  • The original suggestion was play responses like partner opened 1NT. I donít think this is workable but hence why Iím asking the question!


More suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Ian
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#6 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2018-October-21, 16:07

View Posthirowla, on 2018-October-20, 05:33, said:

Let's assume that you are defending 1NT openings (note: most of them will be 12-14 or 13-15 pts - against strong NT we play a different defense). Your agreement is that you may overcall in your suit with 5+ in the suit and 10+ pts, and that 13+ pts without a 5-card suit is a double.

What are some suggested continuations after partner has doubled. In both of the following sequences:

(1NT) - X - P - ? (this is the major one I'm interested in)
(1NT) - X - (some suit bid) - ? (this one can be easier as I can always pass if required).

One suggestion is that you treat partner as having opened 1NT with 13+ pts. What are your thoughts on this? Initially I don't like it as the type of hands you would pass on (i.e weak hands) are probably the ones you don't want to pass as that leaves the double in!

Any other suggestions for follow-up sequences?

Thanks,

Ian

Well, the best bit of advice I can give, is that if they are playing a weak NT, your double should be penalty. "Equal value" tends to be what people learned back when 1nt was 16-18. If they open 12-14 and you have 13 with no 5 card suit to bid, your best action is pass. If your partner has something, they will balance and if they have nothing, you are going to be defending a game contract. You will then be nicely concealed on defense. On the whole, however, the 1nt opener will have the advantage on you, because they have gotten the first bid in and jammed the auction. 1nt-X should be a big hand, 16+ or a hand that is staring at 7 fast tricks in NT. Now, partner with a decent 7 count can pass and you potentially get a nice number against them. A partner with nothing, however, should pull it, as a balanced 16 count isn't beating 1nt. Occasionally, you will defend 1nX and get -2 or 3 when you can probably make 3n on your own. I tend not to worry too much about that happening and just play for a plus in competitive auctions.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-October-24, 00:19

In the first auction you just bid a 5card suit if you are too weak to pass, and pass if you don't have a 5card suit.

If this leads to bad results you have to beef up the requirements for double. I would suggest any 16 count, or 14 with a good lead

The second one one I prefer pass to be nonforcing and double to be negative. Rubensohl may be the best use of 2nt and higher bids.
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-October-24, 09:34

View Posthirowla, on 2018-October-20, 05:33, said:

Let's assume that you are defending 1NT openings (note: most of them will be 12-14 or 13-15 pts - against strong NT we play a different defense). Your agreement is that you may overcall in your suit with 5+ in the suit and 10+ pts, and that 13+ pts without a 5-card suit is a double. What are some suggested continuations after partner has doubled. In both of the following sequences:
  • (1NT) - X - P - ? (this is the major one I'm interested in)
  • (1NT) - X - (some suit bid) - ? (this one can be easier as I can always pass if required).
One suggestion is that you treat partner as having opened 1NT with 13+ pts. What are your thoughts on this? Initially I don't like it as the type of hands you would pass on (i.e weak hands) are probably the ones you don't want to pass as that leaves the double in!
Any other suggestions for follow-up sequences?
Some Scottish partnerships have adopted similar methods. e.g.
After (1N) ??
  • Double = PEN or 2/3 suiter with opening values.
  • Overcalls = NAT 5+ cards.
Such methods were fairly standard, 70+ years ago. Simple and easy to remember.

Another advantage is that partner can often pass the double for penalties, to good effect, with 9+ HCP.
A disadvantage is the partner should probably remove with less -- usually to the cheapest suit in which he is willing to play e.g. bid
  • 2 with x x x x x x x x x x x x x, hoping that partner will correct if necessary but
  • 2 with x x x x x x x x x x x x x, the more expensive the bid, the more likely it is to show a long suit.
Dokoko's suggestions seem to be excellent. e.g.
  • Take advantage of opponents' methods, especially if pass forces a redouble.
  • 2N = 2-suiter
There's also an argument that replies of 2N and above should be Lebensohl. (Not Rubensohl or any transfer method, because you would prefer the notrump opener to be on-lead).
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#9 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2018-October-24, 13:21

View Posthirowla, on 2018-October-21, 03:48, said:

Thanks for the replies so far. Iíll just clarify a few things mentioned above:
  • I agree that overcalling on a 5 card suit is risky. Iíll seen both good and bad results against me doing it. Donít know how how it works out overall. Iíve generally played you only overcall with 2 distribution points. So Iím seeing how it goes.
  • I think the 13 point level comes from it originally meaning ďI have a 1NT openingĒ in the Precision context - which is 13-15 pts.
  • The original suggestion was play responses like partner opened 1NT. I donít think this is workable but hence why Iím asking the question!


More suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Ian


I have played virtually every range of 1N imaginable (tho not ranges starting below 10 hcp because, at least back when I played 10-12, one was not permitted artificial methods if the range was below 10).

My advice:

Treat any range that includes 15 as strong. I don't feel strongly about it, and I've had partners disagree, but that's my view.

More importantly, change your structure.

You can probably get away with doubling with 13 counts and overcalling on 5 card suits against weak players. You'll get buried by good players....not, of course, on every hand and indeed on some hands you'll do very well. However, on balance I am strongly of the view that you'll get killed.

1stly, when you overcall a 5 card suit, but obviously may have 6, your partner is poorly positioned to compete, not knowing your length.

2ndly, you are very much at risk of getting nailed and going for a number when you hold a 5 card suit. Good players won't always be able to nail you...opener may be too long in your suit to reopen, and responder probably plays negative doubles, but even so you are often getting into trouble, especially vulnerable, where they don't need to double if they are collecting 200 against 90 or 120. Note that having a 5 card suit and near-opening values is generally good defensively and poor offensively.

3rdly, when you double....you are truly asking for nightmare results. Good opps, playing weak 1N openings, are often quite happy to play, doubled or redoubled. The lower your threshold for doubling, the more likely it is that responder has values and the more willing he will be to play for blood.

Meanwhile, pity partner. Say he has a 6 count. If you have 13, and you will have 13 far more often than 15 or more, he probably needs to run.....so he runs all the time...including when he should pass, because you have 15 or more.

My rule, which I have played with fair success for many years, with some very strong partners, is that double shows a decent 15 or more. One can double with less only when holding a good lead and side cards. Axx KQJ9xx Kxx x is a reasonable double...not free of risk, since maybe they run 5 clubs and 2 side Aces, but reasonable, especially if they are red, when you may well score a big number.

As for how to advance should partner double:

my advice: 2C is ostensibly natural, but advancer may redouble, if doubled, to say that he has a horrible balanced hand and ask you to run to whatever looks best.

Otherwise 2 level suits are natural and weak. They tend to deny as many as 5 hcp.

2N would be a gf 2-suiter...doubler bids the cheapest suit where he'd be happy playing in this is one of them. The auction continues until game is reached.

3 level bids are natural and forcing.


If the opps start running, the next double by our side is takeout (which can be left in, of course...the double shows values).

If we double in direct seat they may not play 2m undoubled. In some partnerships we play that they cannot play 2H undoubled, but at imps I think that is a little too risky. This means that (1N) x 2m P...pass is forcing. Of course advancer may be stuck, but nothing is perfect.

As for overcalling, here is what I have played for a long time:

x = 15+
2C = majors
2D = hearts. Note that one can bid 2D then a second suit with a pronounced 2-suiter, plus advancer is allowed to bid other than 2H

2H = spades

2S = minors

2N = a good hand with a good 6 card minor....it rarely makes sense to double with these hands since the opps can almost always effectively run to a major. 2N invites advancer to bid 3N with scattered values, or to bid 3C p/c

3-bids....good suits, semi-preemptive (won't usually be a no loser suit, since one can always hope to be on lead v notrump_
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#10 User is online   nullve 

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Posted 2018-October-24, 14:46

View Postmikeh, on 2018-October-24, 13:21, said:

Meanwhile, pity partner. Say he has a 6 count. If you have 13, and you will have 13 far more often than 15 or more, he probably needs to run.....so he runs all the time...including when he should pass, because you have 15 or more.

Dealer code:
north1N = hcp(north)>11 and hcp(north)<15 and shape(north, any 4333 + any 4432 + any 5332)
eastX = hcp(east)>12
westHand = hcp(west)==6
condition north1N and eastX and westHand
action frequency "of hcp in doubler's hand" (hcp(east),13,22)

Result:
Frequency of hcp in doubler's hand:
   13	    6845
   14	    5557
   15	    3980
   16	    2793
   17	    1697
   18	     966
   19	     487
   20	     214
   21	      81
   22	      14
Generated 10000000 hands
Produced 22634 hands
Initial random seed 1540413886

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#11 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2018-October-24, 16:35

View Postnullve, on 2018-October-24, 14:46, said:

Dealer code:
north1N = hcp(north)>11 and hcp(north)<15 and shape(north, any 4333 + any 4432 + any 5332)
eastX = hcp(east)>12
westHand = hcp(west)==6
condition north1N and eastX and westHand
action frequency "of hcp in doubler's hand" (hcp(east),13,22)

Result:
Frequency of hcp in doubler's hand:
   13	    6845
   14	    5557
   15	    3980
   16	    2793
   17	    1697
   18	     966
   19	     487
   20	     214
   21	      81
   22	      14
Generated 10000000 hands
Produced 22634 hands
Initial random seed 1540413886




Fair enough... I should have said: you will have 13 far more often than you will have 15'.

Or that you will have 13 or 14 (on neither of which I am likely to double) more far more often than 15 or more...and I'd be correct:)

I double with 15+ and so does the OP. The real question for a simulation is whether doubling on 13 rates to be a winning move. However, as with many simulations, I don't think it is easy to model, since one has to cater to how the auction might proceed were we to pass, and how it might proceed were we to double. Many instances, in both situations, would end up in some spot other than 1N!
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#12 User is offline   phntmshark 

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Posted 2018-November-03, 15:22

My regular partners and I play that a double of a weak NT in direct seat is treated as a 1NT opener of our own, with all systems on (we can of course pass with 7+ points and flattish hand).
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