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Such impertinence

#1 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2018-October-15, 14:53



X by East would've been a bust. What do you do now?

MP-scoring

This post has been edited by JanisW: 2018-October-16, 09:43

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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-October-15, 15:03

2 calls, X or 5N, I quite like 5N, xxx, xx, Kxxx, Jxxx is much better in clubs, can survive either suit 4-1 whereas 6 only survives clubs 4-1. You may look silly if partner has a 2173 hand and you guess wrong over 6 assuming he is 3343, 2443 or 3442. Actually I got the vul wrong, for opps to bid to 5 vul and partner to not have a bust, he has 0-1 spades so bidding looks good although not playing in hearts also looks good if possible.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2018-October-15, 15:21

Always provide the form of scoring. Note that one may well choose the theoretically unsound heart slam over the theoretically sounder club slam.

However, on this particular hand I prefer to pass. This is forcing of course, and partner can infer that I have very short spades (I would almost always double with a spade loser, unless I had incredible side suits).

If he bids 6 I would bump him to 7, and this (slim) prospect is the main reason to pass 5.

If he bids 6, which I think to be improbable, but the opps do have SHAPE so it isn't impossible, again I will bump, since surely we have 13 winners. Again, I can't risk raising 6C to grand when I force him to bid on what could be xxxx, via 5N.

If he bids 6H, and the odds are extremely high that he won't, I pass. Grand could be cold, but it might equally have little to no play.

If he doubles, I bid 6H, which allows him to bid grand, but he probably won't. This auction should be stronger than an immediate 6, but we are likely dependent on metarules rather than specific agreements :)

If he bids 5N, again I bid 6H.

Btw, at imps there is a little something to be said for double...I would rate it higher than either 5N or 6 since they may go 1100 against our small slam, and our contract might fail. If they go the more likely 800, it may only be a small loss against 980 (or 920). At mps, the odds seem to favour bidding.

I would, at any scoring, prefer pass to any other action, because pass can lead to a good grand, even if it probably won't, while direct bids make it virtually impossible to reach grand.
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#4 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-October-15, 15:31

Pass and pull is generally meant as a (small) slam try 1-level lower and may be interpreted as a grand try here.

Only likely to get us there if partner has a decent number of solid diamonds opposite our Ace but the only chance we have.
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#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2018-October-15, 23:36

The salient question in all this, whether you use either Cyberyeti's, mikeh, or ggwhiz's preferred action is what constitutes a bust in the East hand? Now that we know that East hasn't got a Yarborough, what type of hand, suit(s), control(s) could East possibly have?

I actually like the forcing pass (2nd bid) aspect of the 2 opener as it does enable East to have extra bids at his disposal. However, I'm not totally sure about bumping East's bid into a grand slam until I know the answer to the first paragraph of my comment.

EDIT: There's a small inference that I had not considered before. Given the adverse vulnerability, for the opponents to drive to 5 level immediately sort of suggests that the hand is very distributional, and South is very weak with little or no defensive tricks. That in turn suggests that East possibly has a better hand than commentators have suggested. What concerns me here is who else has a void in their hand? You might reach a reasonable small slam or grand that flounders due to a Lightner Double - that's the pessimist in me - but the optimist says that you cannot win matches by trying to cover every eventuality.
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#6 User is offline   maartenxq 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 03:56

View PostJanisW, on 2018-October-15, 14:53, said:

X by East would've been a bust. What do you do now?

6 and pray. Dbl could easily be the winning option. Having read other answers have to admit the forcing pass is way better. this supposes o course 2 clubs is only strong and not weak diamonds or majors.

Maarten Baltussen
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 05:27

Mike and I take a very different view on this, I play pass as balanced (or pretty balanced) in 2 auctions where they're bounced and X as short spades, NT as 2 places to play. We tend to have blanket agreements in situations like this which may not be best for individual situations, but are at least easy to remember.
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#8 User is offline   thawp66 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 05:53

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-October-15, 15:03, said:

2 calls, X or 5N, I quite like 5N, xxx, xx, Kxxx, Jxxx is much better in clubs, can survive either suit 4-1 whereas 6 only survives clubs 4-1. You may look silly if partner has a 2173 hand and you guess wrong over 6 assuming he is 3343, 2443 or 3442. Actually I got the vul wrong, for opps to bid to 5 vul and partner to not have a bust, he has 0-1 spades so bidding looks good although not playing in hearts also looks good if possible.

How do you expect to get to 6!c anyway. If 5N is minors, how is p supposed to know which is your 3 card suit? Assuming he considers the possibility of course! I agree with (forcing) pass. Also, donít forget to write a big F on the pass card as you play it! Thatís legal, right?
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#9 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 06:07

View Postthawp66, on 2018-October-16, 05:53, said:

How do you expect to get to 6!c anyway. If 5N is minors, how is p supposed to know which is your 3 card suit? Assuming he considers the possibility of course! I agree with (forcing) pass. Also, don’t forget to write a big F on the pass card as you play it! That’s legal, right?


We opened our biggest bid. Partner is not passing. If partner did choose to pass, I would understand what message your "big F" was intended to convey.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 06:11

View Postthawp66, on 2018-October-16, 05:53, said:

How do you expect to get to 6!c anyway. If 5N is minors, how is p supposed to know which is your 3 card suit? Assuming he considers the possibility of course! I agree with (forcing) pass. Also, donít forget to write a big F on the pass card as you play it! Thatís legal, right?


5N is 2 places to play not necessarily minors and forcing
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#11 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 07:57

I think 5NT showing two places to stop and forcing pass are as equal. expert partner should work it out. Two bids that I could not make are 6!H and X.
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#12 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 09:44

View Postmikeh, on 2018-October-15, 15:21, said:

Always provide the form of scoring.


Sorry MP-Scoring added
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#13 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 10:14

Sirs,I personally would bid 5NT and hope for the best ,since partners pass has shown some values .On the table anything is likely,Double (what is partner to do who knows) or 6H or Pass(forcing) depending upon what their partnership has discussed.7C might be cold if partner has xx-xx-Kxxx-Jxxxx.
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#14 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 10:46

wrong post
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#15 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 10:59

View PostJanisW, on 2018-October-16, 09:44, said:

Sorry MP-Scoring added


That makes 6 slightly more attractive than it would be at imps. Amongst other matters, bidding minor suit grands is rarely easy, all the more so in competitive auctions. Thus playing and making 6 for 980 rates to be ok even if 7 happens to make, since few will reach that grand.

However, there remains the possibility that we can make 7D, which we cannot reach via 6H (nor via 5N, imo) and this makes pass the standout for me, even at mps.

Note that on hands where 7D is cold, the auction may well proceed differently. We 'need' (or certainly will be playing for) partner to hold KQxxxx or better should he bid 6D over our forcing pass, and with that hand at some tables the auction might go 2C (2/3S) 3/4D......and we'd have an excellent chance of reaching 7D, whether we merely blast or whether we invoke grand slam force, assuming that 5N would not be a choice of slams bid after, say, 5S on our right. I don't think it should be, btw, since no other suit has been implied, but that is a matter for partnership agreement.
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#16 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 11:03

View Postmsjennifer, on 2018-October-16, 10:46, said:

Sir.I am normally an aggressive bidder but this hand is an exceptional one.This hand technically has 7+ losers and no suit worth calling a "SUIT" as a matter of fact the D suit is nothing better than a "TIE"..I shall not take the bait and just accept whatever comes our way by a tame 'PASS'.

Actually, this hand 'technically' has 2 losers ;) And assuming, as seems reasonable, that the opps have all or most of the spade honours (they are red v white!), partner is marked with at least the diamond King, so this hand, having a LTC of 2, rates to find a nice dummy.

And the pass is not 'tame'. It is, in fact, the most aggressive call one can make, inviting partner to bid a slam with a decent long suit (which can only be diamonds on this hand), which we intend to raise to grand...the antithesis of 'tame'. Partner is expected to bid 5N with 2 places to play, and to double only with a blah hand, whereon, personally, I think it to be close but I would choose 6. Stronger, by logical inference than bidding 6H directly.
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#17 User is offline   microcap 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 13:01

Despite being super annoyed by the interference, these are fun hands and the reason we keep
playing this silly game over and again!

I get the forcing pass argument for sure, but like many answers, I think you have to have a reasonable knowledge of who your partner is and who the opponents are.

After all, how many partnerships have ever discussed 4 level interference after a strong 2 ? Not to mention the 5 level when it comes back to the opener? So are we 100% partner has something?

If I am playing with a paid professional in an IMP's game against good competition, yes I like pass as we should try to guess if a grand is on. With most partners, I will bid either 6 hearts or 5NT if I am sure they will take it as pick a slam and be happy if I find a making small slam. At MP's, it's seldom a bad board to bid and make a small slam even with 20 tricks available..

With Rex, I will feign a health problem and get someone else to bid this hand for me... B-) :lol: :rolleyes:

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#18 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 13:58


MP-scoring
X by East would've been a bust.
What do you do now?

I rank
  • 5N = T/O (2 or 3 places to play) Correct 6 to 6.
  • 6 = NAT. A reasonable practical guess.
  • Pass = ART F1 but partner will almost always double.
  • Double = CARDS but partner will almost always pass.

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#19 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 15:55


I quite like the idea of a forcing pass. 7 is an easy make, but do you really get there? 7 would have to be played by West
We finally arrieved in 6X-2 after West bid 6 and East was not up to bidding 7 after South bid 6.

If East had bid 7 would you have bid 7 from S or hoped that there somehow is a -Trick?
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#20 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2018-October-16, 16:18

View PostJanisW, on 2018-October-16, 15:55, said:


I quite like the idea of a forcing pass. 7 is an easy make, but do you really get there? 7 would have to be played by West
We finally arrieved in 6X-2 after West bid 6 and East was not up to bidding 7 after South bid 6.

If East had bid 7 would you have bid 7 from S or hoped that there somehow is a -Trick?

I don't see getting there with any certainty, but its not impossible. I think over the fp, east bids 5N, pick a slam and West bids 6. East could double, as the other option, but I think the forcing pass made by partner pretty much compels us to bid slam, and we have no clear preference

Btw, if we reached 7C from East, which I doubt, I don't think it clear to lead a heart on the auction, should North double.

One would expect the opps to be able to find their 9 card heart fit if they had one, while they might play clubs with a fit in both minors. As against that, the diamond lead, if wrong, may be very wrong indeed.

I'm somewhat surprised that South found the red v white save. Was the auction 6H (P) P (6S)?

If so, west has a clear and easy forcing pass, to show the spade void (technically could be the Ace but not on this auction at this heat), and now East has a difficult decision. void AKQxxxx Axx AKx is the very least I'd expect on this auction and grand is likely, tho far from cold. I'd be playing South for the club Queen. void AKQxxxx AQx AKx makes it cold. So I think that East should probably bid the grand, but of course it is far easier to make that case when seeing all the hands. Btw, while I gave west 7 hearts, if he has 6H, if he has 6 he has to have better minors than I gave him, and that also leads to 7 being a good spot.
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