[awm]

Hopefully a pretty straightforward poll. Opponents passing throughout, what is 1♦-1♠-3♦-4♦ in your preferred (natural) system? What would you assume with a strong partner but without many agreements?

[Cyberyeti]

Not clear what I'm supposed to do with Kxxx, xx, Qxx, Kxxx if it's not natural inv (3♥ would show for us), we bid 3♦ lighter than most, 6.5-7 tricks, we have another sequence for more.

[pescetom]

Forcing and requesting a control bid - I can't imagine what else it could mean to a strong partner in absence of agreements, although whether this is really a "natural" system is open to debate

[Tramticket]

We have a simple rule. 4m is forcing.

It may not be optimum, but it avoids confusion.

[The_Badger]

Who plays in four of a minor in an uncontested auction? It's a no-man's-land between the two places where you should be: 3NT and 5/6m. Having said that, there will be many hands where a responder will have no better bid than to raise the opener's suit bypassing 3NT. And there will be other auctions where responder will have a good hand opposite opener, and will want to leave space to explore every slam possibility. So, in a way it is both invitational and forcing, but the bottom line is that the partnership cannot stop bidding at the four level.

[TylerE]

Minorwood if we've agreed it, forcing otherwise. You don't invite to 5m, at least on an auction like this.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I prefer forcing, showing SI, starting a Cue Seq., I would expect Minorwood meaning, unconditional.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[rmnka447]

Like others, Minorwood if we'd agreed on that, otherwise forcing.

Any bid which jumps past 3 NT voluntarily in a minor oriented hand where it still could be a consideration should be forcing unless a game bid.

[Cyberyeti]

rmnka447, on 2018-October-14, 11:12, said:

Like others, Minorwood if we'd agreed on that, otherwise forcing.

Any bid which jumps past 3 NT voluntarily in a minor oriented hand where it still could be a consideration should be forcing unless a game bid.

So how do you bid with: (in each case hands where you suspect 5♦ might be too much)

a 3N bid with a club stop but no heart stop
a 3N bid with a heart stop but no club stop
a 3N bid with both suits stopped

or do you just bid 3N with all of them ? does 3♥ show a suit/stop ?

[manudude03]

Agree with the others who say minorwood if agreed otherwise SI.

Cyberyeti, on 2018-October-14, 12:24, said:

So how do you bid with: (in each case hands where you suspect 5♦ might be too much)

a 3N bid with a club stop but no heart stop
a 3N bid with a heart stop but no club stop
a 3N bid with both suits stopped

or do you just bid 3N with all of them ? does 3♥ show a suit/stop ?

For me:
3NT and hope for the best
3H
3NT

[Cyberyeti]

manudude03, on 2018-October-14, 14:24, said:

Agree with the others who say minorwood if agreed otherwise SI.



For me:
3NT and hope for the best
3H
3NT

and what do you d with a sort of 8 with neither suit stopped and 1-2 diamonds, maybe 3 in a 4333

[apollo1201]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-October-14, 12:24, said:

So how do you bid with: (in each case hands where you suspect 5♦ might be too much)

a 3N bid with a club stop but no heart stop
a 3N bid with a heart stop but no club stop
a 3N bid with both suits stopped

or do you just bid 3N with all of them ? does 3♥ show a suit/stop ?

That is the famous Diamonds Issue. Clubs leave more space to bid stoppers while probing for 3NT.

The solution (that can lead to some difficult auctions when a more natural style would fare better) is to play a 2-way 3M:
- 3H being either natural 5+S 4+H or I stop H but not C
- same for 3S (a strong 5-cd or 6+ suit, or I stop C but not H)

Over 3H, opener bids 3S with a fit, and 3NT with C stopper but no fit. If he has none, then he just rebids his Ds I guess... Over 3S, responder bids 4S or a control if his S were real, or 3NT if he was just looking for a C stopper, and opener can sit or move out depending on his C holding, eg he can propose a Moysian 4S or re insist on his Ds.

Similar mechanisms can be agreed in situations like 1M-2D-3D or after a 1NT opening, M transfer and secondary D suit shown by responder.

[helene_t]

I am not sure what to do with a SI if 4♦ here is invitational. I suppose we would have the agreement that 4♥ is the forcing diamond raise, but that certainly doesn't apply without agreements, and it has some obvious disadvantages. Temporizing with 3♥ could also lead to all kind of misunderstandings.

So 4♦ is SI. In all partnerships in which I have discussed this, 4m is never an invite. If you have a diamond fit and a marginal hand, it is go/nogo. Opener's hand is tightly limited so we don't need 4♦ as a blame transfer.

[TylerE]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-October-14, 12:24, said:

So how do you bid with: (in each case hands where you suspect 5♦ might be too much)

a 3N bid with a club stop but no heart stop
a 3N bid with a heart stop but no club stop
a 3N bid with both suits stopped

or do you just bid 3N with all of them ? does 3♥ show a suit/stop ?

As Bergen once said... stopppers are for bottles.

So many ways for 3N to win...

Either we have a stopper,
Or we don't have a stopper and they don't lead it,
Or we don't have a stopper and it splits 4-4,
Or we don't have a stopper and it goes -1 but 5m is down at least 1 also (not uncommon when you have 2 losers in one suit),
etc

[kuhchung]

shocked if this isn't natural and forcing in an undiscussed expert partnership

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2018-October-14, 17:20, said:

I am not sure what to do with a SI if 4♦ here is invitational. I suppose we would have the agreement that 4♥ is the forcing diamond raise, but that certainly doesn't apply without agreements, and it has some obvious disadvantages. Temporizing with 3♥ could also lead to all kind of misunderstandings.

So 4♦ is SI. In all partnerships in which I have discussed this, 4m is never an invite. If you have a diamond fit and a marginal hand, it is go/nogo. Opener's hand is tightly limited so we don't need 4♦ as a blame transfer.

But for most people 3♦ is not tightly limited at all, it's anywhere between a 15 count (maybe less) and a 2♣ opener.

[johnu]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-October-16, 12:45, said:

But for most people 3♦ is not tightly limited at all, it's anywhere between a 15 count (maybe less) and a 2♣ opener.

Really? I would expect a jump shift, maybe manufactured, as the hand gets close to a 2♣ opener.

[Cyberyeti]

johnu, on 2018-October-16, 14:16, said:

Really? I would expect a jump shift, maybe manufactured, as the hand gets close to a 2♣ opener.

This is style dependent, many people don't like a fake jump shift or reverse into a major or a doubleton club and that can be the choice.

We NEVER fake these, but we play an artificial 2N GF rebid to deal with the big ones.

[rhm]

This poll is a bit confusing.
People answer with Minorwood if it has been agreed upon.
Of course you agree in advance what bids mean.
If you have not agreed to Minorwood it is not Minorwood and if you did it is. No need for a poll.
I think the poll is about what it should mean in an established partnership.
I vote for Minorwood and with an unsuitable hand I will start with an ambiguous new suit as an advanced cuebid, which will be clarified later.
If I have a game invite I can choose bidding game or I pass.

Rainer Herrmann

[nige1]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-October-14, 12:24, said:

So how do you bid with: (in each case hands where you suspect 5♦ might be too much)

a 3N bid with a club stop but no heart stop
a 3N bid with a heart stop but no club stop
a 3N bid with both suits stopped

or do you just bid 3N with all of them ? does 3♥ show a suit/stop ?

Cyberyeti pinpoints the problem. What do calls mean after 1♦ - 1♠ - 3♦ - ??.
Perhaps

• Pass = NAT
• 3♥ = ART (ASK for ♥ stop or NAT 2-suiter (Ms) or Advance CUE for ♦)
• 3♠ = NAT N/F.
• 3N = ♥ stop. Might also have ♣ stop.
• 4♣ = CUE for ♦.
• 4♦ = NAT F1 invites ♠ preference. (Should this deny a high-card control in a round-suit?)

Theoretically, it might be better to swap some of the meanings of 3♥ and 3N, But in practice, most players with a ♥ stop would bid a thoughtless 3N.