BBO Discussion Forums: Natural vs Unusual - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Natural vs Unusual Standard bidding NT overcalls

Poll: How natural is your standard? (37 member(s) have cast votes)

P (1D) P (P) 1N =?

  1. natural (28 votes [75.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 75.68%

  2. unusual (showing 2 lowest unbid suits) (8 votes [21.62%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.62%

  3. something else (1 votes [2.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.70%

P (P) P (1D) 1N =?

  1. natural (4 votes [10.81%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.81%

  2. unusual (showing 2 lowest unbid suits) (28 votes [75.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 75.68%

  3. something else (5 votes [13.51%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.51%

(1D) P (1S) 1N =?

  1. natural (22 votes [59.46%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 59.46%

  2. unusual (showing 2 lowest unbid suits) (13 votes [35.14%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.14%

  3. something else (2 votes [5.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   Draculea 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 10
  • Joined: 2016-January-31
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Castrum Sex
  • Interests:bridge

Posted 2018-October-09, 01:48

Only 3 questions allowed so the other two are here if you dare:

Question 4: 1D P P 2NT=?

Question 5: P (1D) P (1S) 1NT=?
0

#2 User is online   JanisW 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 110
  • Joined: 2017-September-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 2018-October-09, 02:23

No1: Balancing 1NT I'd expect something like a semi-balanced 10-11count without a five card major.
No2: unusual, as I am not in pass-out-seat and cannot have a natural 1NT-call
No3: natural with me, but might easily be played unusual. 1NT natural is quite dangerous in this spot. And should have good stop(s) and a source of tricks. Therefore it will rarely come up and the unusual use becomes attractive.
No4: unusual
No5: unusual, as it cannot be natural with the initial pass.
0

#3 User is offline   Draculea 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 10
  • Joined: 2016-January-31
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Castrum Sex
  • Interests:bridge

Posted 2018-October-09, 03:10

I'm natural on 4th and unusual on 5th.
0

#4 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,021
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2018-October-09, 03:52

4th question - Most would regard as natural, but we play Ghestem structure in 2nd and 4th seat.
5th question - Unusual
0

#5 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 839
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2018-October-09, 06:59

I guess the 1st has to be natural, even if it is unusual :)

Same for the 4th, although I suspect partner would take it as Unusual. Luckily Unusual is alertable around here, although of course you're not supposed to take advantage of that...
0

#6 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,070
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2018-October-09, 16:02

1. Most people here play this as 11-14 natural

2. Since you've already passed, you can't have enough for a natural NT call so it's unusual.

3. With two unlimited as yet opponents bidding, many people are using this as a sandwich 1 NT that is unusual and weaker than a double in this position. It's hard to see you coming in with a NT call when the opponents have presumably already shown about half the points in the deck.

4. Unusual for the lower two unbid suits. 1 NT here is 11-14 natural, Double followed by minimum NT is 15-18, Double followed by a jump in NT is 19-20.

5. Unusual, same as #2
0

#7 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,588
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2018-October-09, 16:07

It is difficult to answer this since it will depend on the partnership.

With an advanced partner but with limited system discussion I would assume natural by an unpassed hand, although in the sandwich position it may depend on which country they are from.

Unusual by a passed hand. I wouldn't be sure about the balancing 1NT, though.

The auction
(p)-p-(1)-p
(1)-p-(p)-1NT
probably counts as unpassed.

My preferred agreement is to play Raptor in direct seat, certainly by a passed hand and also by an unpassed hand if opps are not know to open extremely light.

In the sandwich I prefer Raptor as well.
So there is someone who is more pedantic than I am. Good to know ;) --- Blackshoe
0

#8 User is online   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,195
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-October-10, 03:05

#3 is a matter of taste / agreement.
#4 standard is certainly a strong 2NT bid, we play it as unusual
#5 contrary to #3, you cant have the strength for a natural 1 NT
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
1

#9 User is offline   Joe_Old 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 132
  • Joined: 2016-December-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Jersey, USA

Posted 2018-October-10, 11:08

The general trend over the last 6+ decades is to redefine bids such as double, 1 or 2 NT, and cuebids as picture bids, with one major goal being: disrupt the opponents auction. Example: low level doubles used to be penalty, now they are constructive and descriptive (negative, support, etc.). The whole concept of the unusual NT was to not only give partner a picture of your hand but to use up a lot of the opponents' bidding space (double doesn't use up space and gives the opponents an extra bid to describe their hands, NT forces the auction to the next level).

Therefore, all but the first example would be unusual to me, differing only in strength and number of cards in the unbid suits.
0

#10 User is offline   miamijd 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 430
  • Joined: 2015-November-14

Posted 2018-October-10, 13:31

"Standard expert" is as follows:

1. Natural - a normal balancing NT limited by your failure to open. Probably an 11 or really horrible 12 count (I open almost all 12 counts); maybe a phenomenal 10 in a rare case. There is no need for it to be unusual, as there is nothing to be gained by preempting the opponents (RHO has nothing).

2. Unusual - two lowest unbid.

3. Can be either natural or "sandwich" depending on agreement. I don't have a strong preference, but if it's undiscussed, then "standard" is natural.

The case for sandwich is that you won't generally have 15-18 here, and if you do, 1NT is a bit risky. Using 1NT to show 5/5 means that X shows a less shapely hand and 2NT shows 6/5 or better

The case for natural is that a lot of players respond to 1m bids on fertilizer nowadays, so the hand could well belong to your side (maybe you even have a game).

4. Natural 18+ to 20 or so.

This is important. There is no reason whatsoever to play this as unusual. There is no need to preempt; RHO has nothing. And if it's your hand, the last thing you want to do is jump the bidding with a hand of indeterminate strength.

On the other hand, there is a very good reason to play this bid as natural. Over 1D, a balancing NT is about 11-14. X followed by 1NT (if available) is 15-18 or so. 2NT immediately is 19-20. X followed by 2NT is 21-23 or so. If you don't have the jump to 2NT available, you have no way to distinguish 19 from 23. Not good.

5. Sandwich - probably 5/5 in the unbids. What else can it be if you are passed hand?

Cheers,
Mike
1

#11 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,021
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2018-October-10, 15:34

View Postmiamijd, on 2018-October-10, 13:31, said:

"Standard expert" is as follows:

4. Natural 18+ to 20 or so.

This is important. There is no reason whatsoever to play this as unusual. There is no need to preempt; RHO has nothing. And if it's your hand, the last thing you want to do is jump the bidding with a hand of indeterminate strength.

On the other hand, there is a very good reason to play this bid as natural. Over 1D, a balancing NT is about 11-14. X followed by 1NT (if available) is 15-18 or so. 2NT immediately is 19-20. X followed by 2NT is 21-23 or so. If you don't have the jump to 2NT available, you have no way to distinguish 19 from 23. Not good.

Hi Mike, I agree with the other responses. I also agree that standard is for #4 to be natural. Nethertheless I would argue that it is possible (and arguably desirable) to play a protective 2Nt as a two-suiter.

To answer your points: (1) I agree that there is little need to pre-empt in this position, but this doesn't mean that a two-suited bid can't be useful. (2) It is certainly possible to make the NT ranges work. We are not the only pairs playing a wide range 1NT protective over-call (with a Crowhurst type enqiry).
0

#12 User is offline   Joe_Old 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 132
  • Joined: 2016-December-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Jersey, USA

Posted 2018-October-10, 18:16

View Postmiamijd, on 2018-October-10, 13:31, said:

"Standard expert" is as follows:

4. Natural 18+ to 20 or so.

This is important. There is no reason whatsoever to play this as unusual. There is no need to preempt; RHO has nothing. And if it's your hand, the last thing you want to do is jump the bidding with a hand of indeterminate strength.

On the other hand, there is a very good reason to play this bid as natural. Over 1D, a balancing NT is about 11-14. X followed by 1NT (if available) is 15-18 or so. 2NT immediately is 19-20. X followed by 2NT is 21-23 or so. If you don't have the jump to 2NT available, you have no way to distinguish 19 from 23. Not good.



Disagree. With 2 - suiters of intermediate strength we use up bidding room while defining our own hands. With very strong hands we save space by doubling then cue bidding (or doubling again, depending upon the level of the auction). I agree that your sequence was the usual approach, and is still common, but it is not "standard expert" around here largely because of the rarity of huge NT hands in front of an opening bid..
0

#13 User is offline   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 925
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-October-10, 18:31

View PostJoe_Old, on 2018-October-10, 18:16, said:

I agree that your sequence was the usual approach, and is still common, but it is not "standard expert" around here largely because of the rarity of huge NT hands in front of an opening bid..

Perhaps people think differently over a 1 opener, but a BridgeWinners poll for a balancing 2nt over a 1 opener showed less than 10% of people voting for it showing the minors: https://bridgewinner.../balancing-2nt/
Challenge event 14 is underway.

Feel free to send me a friend challenge of any format as often as you like. I'll always accept :)
2

#14 User is offline   miamijd 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 430
  • Joined: 2015-November-14

Posted 2018-October-11, 00:08

View PostJoe_Old, on 2018-October-10, 18:16, said:

Disagree. With 2 - suiters of intermediate strength we use up bidding room while defining our own hands. With very strong hands we save space by doubling then cue bidding (or doubling again, depending upon the level of the auction). I agree that your sequence was the usual approach, and is still common, but it is not "standard expert" around here largely because of the rarity of huge NT hands in front of an opening bid..


I don't know where "around here" is, but in the USA, (1D) p (p) 2NT is overwhelmingly played as a strong bid.

Cheers,
Mike
0

#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,215
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-October-11, 13:01

View PostTramticket, on 2018-October-10, 15:34, said:

Hi Mike, I agree with the other responses. I also agree that standard is for #4 to be natural. Nethertheless I would argue that it is possible (and arguably desirable) to play a protective 2Nt as a two-suiter.

To answer your points: (1) I agree that there is little need to pre-empt in this position, but this doesn't mean that a two-suited bid can't be useful. (2) It is certainly possible to make the NT ranges work. We are not the only pairs playing a wide range 1NT protective over-call (with a Crowhurst type enqiry).


We do this too, but still play the protective 2NT bid as strong.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#16 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,215
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-October-11, 13:02

View PostVampyr, on 2018-October-11, 13:01, said:

We do this too, but still play the protective 2NT bid as strong.

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users