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Your Bid.

#1 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-October-07, 13:43

Your hand: Void-x-J10652-KQ98532 RED vs White. Match Points Pairs
LHO dealer opens 1Spade,Partner 2 Diamond,RHO 2 Heart.
What do you bid ?
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#2 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-October-07, 14:45

I bid an invitational raise of Diamonds, whatever it is in your system.
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-October-07, 14:56

4 fit and bidding 5 if I get the chance
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#4 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2018-October-07, 15:10

6
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#5 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2018-October-07, 20:24

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-October-07, 14:56, said:

4 fit and bidding 5 if I get the chance


I think this is the most important bid to make - partner will have a way better idea of what to do then even if he doesn't know where 3 of your minor suit cards are.
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#6 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2018-October-07, 22:38

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-October-07, 14:56, said:

4 fit and bidding 5 if I get the chance


I like this sequence better if you have a good ODR (Offence to Defence Ratio) but why make it easier for the opponents to find their game/slam. The KQ isn't as good as an A in defence, and with a seven bagger there's little chance of s holding two rounds. Partner has overcalled vulnerable (at adverse vulnerability) so should have something outside the suit.

Whilst 4 is a way of showing this hand, depending on methods, I'd rather just bid 5 direct as my hand is pre-emptive through and through. Let the opponents guess at the five or six level.

I personally feel 4 is a great bid if partner understands it as this type of purely-pre-emptive hand, when there's a good chance that you may sacrifice (at adverse vulnerability) against the opponents, something that happens rarely.
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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-October-08, 02:43

View PostThe_Badger, on 2018-October-07, 22:38, said:

I like this sequence better if you have a good ODR (Offence to Defence Ratio) but why make it easier for the opponents to find their game/slam. The KQ isn't as good as an A in defence, and with a seven bagger there's little chance of s holding two rounds. Partner has overcalled vulnerable (at adverse vulnerability) so should have something outside the suit.

Whilst 4 is a way of showing this hand, depending on methods, I'd rather just bid 5 direct as my hand is pre-emptive through and through. Let the opponents guess at the five or six level.

I personally feel 4 is a great bid if partner understands it as this type of purely-pre-emptive hand, when there's a good chance that you may sacrifice (at adverse vulnerability) against the opponents, something that happens rarely.


I don't want partner to stop bidding with a club fit, this could be a hand where both sides are making 6 (and in fact we could be making 7 if they lead the wrong major), and I may well want him to bid 7 over 6M.
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#8 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-October-08, 03:29

We have no prospects of supplying any tricks in defence (you can't even Lightner double six hearts, since you will be on lead) and the opponents have a big fit at least one of the majors. Since partner has made a two-level over-call, it is possible that he has a couple of tricks in defence, but also possible that he only holds one (or zero) defensive tricks. It is, in some ways, too late to pre-empt - both opponents have had the opportunity to bid their suit and they should be able to identify their best fit and bid to game or slam as appropriate. Maybe bidding 5 will cut out Blackwood and make it tough to investigate slam scientifically but I suspect that it is already too late.

A fit jump (4) does at least give partner the chance to judge to make a sensible vulnerable(!) sacrifice I am not optimistic..
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#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-October-08, 03:57

View PostTramticket, on 2018-October-08, 03:29, said:

We have no prospects of supplying any tricks in defence (you can't even Lightner double six hearts, since you will be on lead) and the opponents have a big fit at least one of the majors. Since partner has made a two-level over-call, it is possible that he has a couple of tricks in defence, but also possible that he only holds one (or zero) defensive tricks. It is, in some ways, too late to pre-empt - both opponents have had the opportunity to bid their suit and they should be able to identify their best fit and bid to game or slam as appropriate. Maybe bidding 5 will cut out Blackwood and make it tough to investigate slam scientifically but I suspect that it is already too late.

A fit jump (4) does at least give partner the chance to judge to make a sensible vulnerable(!) sacrifice I am not optimistic..


The fit jump also gives him the chance to realise that AJ10x might not be as many tricks as he thought in defence
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#10 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2018-October-08, 04:44

At the table I'd be tempted to bid 5!D, but this is the natural bidding forum; I'll show something about my 7-card suit.
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#11 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2018-October-08, 10:09

The funny thing is msjennifer has posted this in the Natural Bidding Discussion Forum, and whilst I said 4 is a great bid previously, it's a bid that Advanced/Expert players would have come across - the jump fit in a new suit in a competitive auction - but might be certainly more obscure to players at a more basic level. In a strange way, there's nothing seriously wrong with 4 as a natural bid given that you can always return to s, assuming partner will get the message.

Cyberyeti is quite right that the auction and fits that exist for both pairs could see bidding at slam level, with both pairs able to make slam. This is a hand I would dread at teams, but at pairs you are allowed more liberties.

The one thing I am picking up from the bidding is that is less likely that both sides have double fits, although they could well exist - but that would make the hand extremely freaky. The opposition didn't indicate a fit on the first round of bidding, but opener might have a long suit. I think it is less likely that partner has (4 either/)54 shape but has (7 either /)51 shape. But trying to work out any potential distributions on this round of bidding is pure speculation.

I still like 5 here as it takes away a whole level of bidding for the opponents, but equally 4 could be the winning bid.
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#12 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-October-08, 23:17

I'd start with 5 now. And anticipate possibly making a 6 bid next, if necessary.

5 now gives the opponents a tough decision. All they know is they each have major and likely shortness. So do they carry on to the 5 level?
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#13 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2018-October-08, 23:46

I bid clubs now. If I have a way to show clubs and diamonds, great - I'll use that. If not, I need to tell partner how to evaluate club values both on offence and defence. My plan is to bid whatever number of diamonds seems appropriate next round so partner has some idea of my hand.

So, 4C in most partnerships. 3C if that is not available. Either will be followed by at least 5D.
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#14 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-October-09, 00:34

[quote name='rmnka447' timestamp='1539062273' post='961053']
I'd start with 5 now. And anticipate possibly making a 6 bid next, if necessary.

5 now gives the opponents a tough decision. All they know is they each have major and likely shortness. So do they carry on to the 5 level?
[/quotey
Sir,I had a strong suspicion that they had fit in both majors and , since at 2level our suit overcalls are 6 or more cards, a strong possibility of a void in either hands,MY second problem was that if they bid 5H and it goes pass pass pass what now ?Is it I have to bid 6C/D? Therefore I bid a direct 6D.This was doubled by LHO.My stranger partner who blamed me a lot after the deal surprisingly held Kxxx-xxx-Axxxx-A.I would say,SOME VULNERABLE overcall.!
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#15 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2018-October-09, 01:43

I think this is an interesting problem and any call could be right.

My gut feel was to bid 5. I really want to take space from the opponents and make them guess. Although showing clubs, if you play that 4 is a fit jump, looks attractive it does give the opposition space: an important 4 cue bid is available when they have a strong heart raise, a double is available for when they have very good spades or partial heart fit, and 4 for a minimum fit.

I also thought of 4, since they may just bid game and not slam, given the space restrictions, but eventually thought our distribution was too extreme for this.

I think 6 is a bid for a different vulnerability. This almost forces them to double and two down will be a bottom. This is not the vulnerability for sacrificing and, if they do bid over it, they are almost certainly going to make it.

But 6 may well work when they have slam, but you are removing partner from the board so you take the glory when it works and the blame when it does not. In my limited experience random partners like to bid so they are not as reliable as a regular partner or friend.
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