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2 Grrand Slams (1510 IMPs) in 4 Hands by GIB

#1 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 23:26

Dear all

EDIT (10+ IMPS, 1510 points)

Aropos of my recent discussion topic about my bidding with GIB and play my North robot has just bid straight to two grand slams with just a little encouragement by me (pushing my points a bit). Quite shocked really. Does it read the forums about not bidding aggressively enough :). I'm interested in any comments on the bidding since I didn't completely know how I should be bidding and how it jumped directly to 7 in one hand. Unfortunately they were not in a tournament hand since only other one table bid and made the 7 so they scored huge IMPs. Also they were played by GIB so sadly I didn't get chance to play them and practice if I could have made them myself - obviously no guarantee given my current level of declarer play

Fistly the robot was encouraged to jump from 3 to 7S by me exaggerating my point count by 3 or 4 based on having a nice shape and aces. I wasnt sure what to bid
http://tinyurl.com/yd9r3rdf

Secondly I was unsure what to bid and again exaggerated my points by 3-4 to bid 5H (not sure why - trying to follow GIB bid descriptions) and the robot went straight froom 5 to 7

http://tinyurl.com/y9rca5ue

Both hands scored 1510 and more than 10 IMPs since most tables were in 6

I would be grateful for any advice on how to bid these two hands. I'm happy with the outcome but not totally happy with my bids and whether we could have got there in a safer way

thanks P
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#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 01:44

The first one the reverse is a bit on the aggressive side (good players probably split on whether they reverse or not depending on style, probably more don't reverse (just bid 2s) than do), but the bot went nuts. You could easily have similar hand with say CQJ and totally normal reverse, and be missing SQ as you were, and maybe SJT as well, leaving the bot with no play. The bot has no reason not to check that you have SKQ of spades, that's what RKC is for. You want to stop in 6; you don't want to be in a <50% slam where you have to find the trump Q.


The second one, there's really zero reason for you to jump to 5H over 4D; just bid 4H. You've already shown your extra values by jumping to 3nt over the 4th suit forcing call. Now partner has shown a big red 2 suiter; that means your black suit cards aren't all that great, because partner is going to be short in those suits. You want aces in the black suits and AK combos, not Ks, not lower honors which can only pitch long diamonds which will be good anyway (unless partner has the CA to fill in your suit). Your hand got worse not better, so don't jump. Also you also rob partner of being able to use RKC (though can't effectively on this hand, with a void), putting him to a guess. Still the bot was rather optimistic, probably shouldn't be bidding 7.
You got lucky with the bot lead and favorable CA.
Basically don't take the bots too seriously on how to bid, there are way too many bugs. Post hands in the forums if you are unsure how good players would bid them. Post in the robot forum if you think the bot went nuts.

BTW you can embed the hands in your post so people don't have to click the link by using the code:
[hv="paste expanded URL here"]400|300[/hv]



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#3 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 10:53

View PostStephen Tu, on 2018-September-15, 01:44, said:

The first one the reverse is a bit on the aggressive side (good players probably split on whether they reverse or not depending on style, probably more don't reverse (just bid 2s) than do), but the bot went nuts. You could easily have similar hand with say CQJ and totally normal reverse, and be missing SQ as you were, and maybe SJT as well, leaving the bot with no play. The bot has no reason not to check that you have SKQ of spades, that's what RKC is for. You want to stop in 6; you don't want to be in a <50% slam where you have to find the trump Q.


Gib uses KC inappropriately. Here there is likely grand slam unless off KC or Q. So check!
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#4 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 21:13

Hi Stephen

Thankyou again for the advice

View PostStephen Tu, on 2018-September-15, 01:44, said:

The first one the reverse is a bit on the aggressive side (good players probably split on whether they reverse or not depending on style, probably more don't reverse (just bid 2s) than do), but the bot went nuts. You could easily have similar hand with say CQJ and totally normal reverse, and be missing SQ as you were, and maybe SJT as well, leaving the bot with no play. The bot has no reason not to check that you have SKQ of spades, that's what RKC is for. You want to stop in 6; you don't want to be in a <50% slam where you have to find the trump Q.


This seemed the better of the two slams but as you say probably should have been left to 6S. I was reasonbly happy with my choice of reverse despite it pushing my total points by 2+. I wasn't sure if we could end up being left in 4S and tried to push it a bit, but I didn't expect the jump to 7 :)

Quote

The second one, there's really zero reason for you to jump to 5H over 4D; just bid 4H. You've already shown your extra values by jumping to 3nt over the 4th suit forcing call. Now partner has shown a big red 2 suiter; that means your black suit cards aren't all that great, because partner is going to be short in those suits. You want aces in the black suits and AK combos, not Ks, not lower honors which can only pitch long diamonds which will be good anyway (unless partner has the CA to fill in your suit). Your hand got worse not better, so don't jump. Also you also rob partner of being able to use RKC (though can't effectively on this hand, with a void), putting him to a guess. Still the bot was rather optimistic, probably shouldn't be bidding 7.
You got lucky with the bot lead and favorable CA.


Thanks. Yes. This one definitely isnt on with the bad lead. Not sure why it didn't lead A against grand slam

Quote

Basically don't take the bots too seriously on how to bid, there are way too many bugs. Post hands in the forums if you are unsure how good players would bid them. Post in the robot forum if you think the bot went nuts.

Thanks. I know thee robot bids were somewhat caused by my overoptimistic bids. First slam was probably good and was a definite chance. Second one defintely wasn't on and as you say I overvalued what I had. I was trying to show my high H and D based on the description of the bid - but should have stuck to 4H

Quote

BTW you can embed the hands in your post so people don't have to click the link by using the code:
[hv="paste expanded URL here"]400|300[/hv]


Good tip, thanks.
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#5 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 22:32

View Postthepossum, on 2018-September-15, 21:13, said:

Thanks. I know thee robot bids were somewhat caused by my overoptimistic bids. First slam was probably good and was a definite chance.


First grand slam is BAD. You don't want to be in grand slam off the trump Q in 8 cd fit. 10 cd fit fine. 9 is sub-optimal by a little (when holding SJ) if other table is guaranteed in 6 at least (bad if some possibility stop in game). 8 is suboptimal by a lot.
The problem is that missing the Q, you are at best 50%. Usually a bit less since you often also need spades not 5-0, sometimes not 4-1 either. If grand makes, you pick up +11 imps. If it goes down, you lose 14. (at non-vulnerable). If it's a 50% chance, basically every two times it comes up you are losing 3 imps on average, which is bad. If the other table is in small slam at least, you basically need 57%+ to want to be in grand, not 50, and certainly less than 50. If accidents are possible and they sometimes stop in game, you need even better odds to bid grands, I wouldn't want to be in anything that needed more than a 3-2 break in a particular suit.

Especially missing 9 of trumps, the bot really should have played trumps finessing the other way, going down, low to the T without cashing a top honor. Because you can pick up Q9xx with East, but not Q9xx with West.
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#6 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-September-17, 19:47

Wrong forum? (should be in GIB forum)

Once again GIB refuses to lead an ace against a grand and goes to bed with it...

ahydra
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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-September-18, 04:53

View PostStephen Tu, on 2018-September-15, 22:32, said:

First grand slam is BAD. You don't want to be in grand slam off the trump Q in 8 cd fit. 10 cd fit fine. 9 is sub-optimal by a little (when holding SJ) if other table is guaranteed in 6 at least (bad if some possibility stop in game). 8 is suboptimal by a lot.
The problem is that missing the Q, you are at best 50%. Usually a bit less since you often also need spades not 5-0, sometimes not 4-1 either. If grand makes, you pick up +11 imps. If it goes down, you lose 14. (at non-vulnerable). If it's a 50% chance, basically every two times it comes up you are losing 3 imps on average, which is bad. If the other table is in small slam at least, you basically need 57%+ to want to be in grand, not 50, and certainly less than 50. If accidents are possible and they sometimes stop in game, you need even better odds to bid grands, I wouldn't want to be in anything that needed more than a 3-2 break in a particular suit.

Especially missing 9 of trumps, the bot really should have played trumps finessing the other way, going down, low to the T without cashing a top honor. Because you can pick up Q9xx with East, but not Q9xx with West.


7 is bad, but how bad is 7 which with hearts 4-3 and clubs 3-3 makes without needing to find Q
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#8 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2018-September-18, 05:13

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-September-18, 04:53, said:

7 is bad, but how bad is 7 which with hearts 4-3 and clubs 3-3 makes without needing to find Q


Congrats if you bid these hands to 7!

A former teammate of mine was known for being in every slam on a 4-3-fit and bringing them home if at all possible. Why then didn't he win national (let alone international) titles? He was always looking for exceptions and lost on the unexceptional hands.
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#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-September-18, 05:28

View Postdokoko, on 2018-September-18, 05:13, said:

Congrats if you bid these hands to 7!

A former teammate of mine was known for being in every slam on a 4-3-fit and bringing them home if at all possible. Why then didn't he win national (let alone international) titles? He was always looking for exceptions and lost on the unexceptional hands.


Not expecting anybody to bid 7, I just enjoy curiosities like this where your best fit is not necessarily the best spot.

One of the highspots of my career was a hand where we correctly played in a 5-2 fit with a 5-5 fit available to nail down winning a competition.
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#10 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2018-October-05, 10:34

View Postahydra, on 2018-September-17, 19:47, said:

Wrong forum? (should be in GIB forum)

Once again GIB refuses to lead an ace against a grand and goes to bed with it...

ahydra


Its not the wrong forum. I'm a beginner and leaarning. It could be in GIB forum too I guess but that is not my focus

cheers P
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#11 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2018-October-05, 10:39

Thanks all for the discussion

For me the priority I guess is to enjoy the game, which means that the percentage play is not always my interest. the occasional unusual hand or overvaluing hands can produce some good results as well as bad. In this case I focus on the times I get a top :) or a hand nobody else bids. I know in tournaments over time you need to play the percentages much more. I was brought up on rubber bridge, not so much tournament and certainly never had pretensions to be a consistently top player. However a consistently good player with occasional unusual bids would be a good aim

cheers. The P
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