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Is this a 2C opener, and how best to find slam?

#1 User is offline   el mister 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 03:55

My wife showed me this hand she played at the club last night - matchpoint game, S is dealer. The room results suggested the bidding methods on display did not deliver. How would you tackle this, and how high do you want to get? Also, is this a 2C opener in your book?


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#2 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 06:27

#1 no, for us, this is not a 2C opener, if you switched the black suits,
we could start talking, but with clubs as our longest suit, I would
be at 3NT in no time, and what would I have showed?
If you want to make a strength showing opening bid, go with 2NT

#2 my try

1C - 1H
2S (1) - 3D (2)
3NT (3) - 6H (4)
all pass

(1) since 1S is non forcing, I dont get it, but I was forced to play it
that way, and 1S nonforcing is more mainstream than 1S forcing
(2) FSF, playing 2NT as some kind of Lebensohl would be reasonable
(3) what else
(4) what else, ... we have 31-33HCP between us, I have a 8 card suit
any heart with partner will be brilliant
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 06:32

It would appear 6/6N are the best spots.

I know I'd start with 1 with the south hand, not sure if I'd bid 1 or 2(SJS) with the N hand, probably just 1.

We'd go

1-1
2N (GF unbal, always really big if not with hearts)-3(7+, single suited there is a semi forced 3 here)
3-4N
5(0/3)-5(Q ?)
5(no)-5N (expect me to have AKxxxxxx maybe with the J, do you have xx ?)
6 no

If we started 1-2(single suited big or decent 5+/4+ GF)
2N (at most stiff J in hearts)-3 (single suited and good enough suit to play a heart slam opposite small singleton)
3-4 (cues, don't cue shortage in partner's suit)
4(Kickback)-5(2 without)
5 (K)-5N (something useful to tell you about above 6, must be Q
6 (bid a grand with the K or Q)-6 (nope, nor Q)
6N (partner has 2 entries, either the heart suit establishes for 1 loser, or we take our chances on the side suits
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#4 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 06:33

1-1
2-4nt
5*-7nt

*1 or 4 keycards for spades

South doesn't show the void because it is in partner's suit.

I was too greedy on this one. 6 is enough.
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#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 07:19

The Hideous Hog would be in a Moysian 7 contract on this and would succeed given a few good breaks in the side suits and a finesse, even on a trump lead :)
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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 11:24

Of course there are always those who post their idiosyncratic methods, which seem always to work on the hands, which leaves me wondering why those posters haven't won the past 10 world events.

Back to the real world, a reasonable mainstream approach might be:

1C 1H
2S 3H
3N 6H


2S is necessary because we have a gf despite the misfit. 1S is non-forcing for a variety of reasons, the main one is that sensible bidding methods allow for differentiation of hand strength early in the auction. When one plays wide-range opening bids, as in standard methods, is it important, for intelligent system design, to have opener begin to limit his or her range on the second round.

3H: while one can play a lebensohl approach here, it is not as important or as useful as after a reverse. 2S, unlike the way most play reverses, established a game force. Lebensohl type structures over reverses are used, in part, to allow the partnership to play below game. Here, 3H cannot be passed.

An alternative might be 4H, to stress the suit, but the hand is too good for that. We are driving to slam opposite a jump shift.

3N is ugly but better than any alternative

6H is practical. The chances of grand are not good. Opener has at most a stiff heart, and we need specific cards and (if that stiff is not the queen) some luck, to make grand. Meanwhile, if partner is looking at, for example, AKxx Q Axx AKxxx, he can recognize the power of that trump queen, and all the controls, and bid the grand, which has to have play opposite any hand that can bid 6H on this auction.

I don't see any alternative to 6H. We can't invite a choice of slams. We can't bid a new suit at the 4-level. 5H asks the wrong question, and 4H is what we'd bid with KQ10xxxxx and out.
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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 14:55

View Postmikeh, on 2018-September-14, 11:24, said:

Of course there are always those who post their idiosyncratic methods, which seem always to work on the hands, which leaves me wondering why those posters haven't won the past 10 world events.

Back to the real world, a reasonable mainstream approach might be:

1C 1H
2S 3H
3N 6H


2S is necessary because we have a gf despite the misfit. 1S is non-forcing for a variety of reasons, the main one is that sensible bidding methods allow for differentiation of hand strength early in the auction. When one plays wide-range opening bids, as in standard methods, is it important, for intelligent system design, to have opener begin to limit his or her range on the second round.

3H: while one can play a lebensohl approach here, it is not as important or as useful as after a reverse. 2S, unlike the way most play reverses, established a game force. Lebensohl type structures over reverses are used, in part, to allow the partnership to play below game. Here, 3H cannot be passed.

An alternative might be 4H, to stress the suit, but the hand is too good for that. We are driving to slam opposite a jump shift.

3N is ugly but better than any alternative

6H is practical. The chances of grand are not good. Opener has at most a stiff heart, and we need specific cards and (if that stiff is not the queen) some luck, to make grand. Meanwhile, if partner is looking at, for example, AKxx Q Axx AKxxx, he can recognize the power of that trump queen, and all the controls, and bid the grand, which has to have play opposite any hand that can bid 6H on this auction.

I don't see any alternative to 6H. We can't invite a choice of slams. We can't bid a new suit at the 4-level. 5H asks the wrong question, and 4H is what we'd bid with KQ10xxxxx and out.


What would 4 over 2 be ? isn't that the KQ10 8th and out hand ?
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 15:29

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-September-14, 14:55, said:

What would 4 over 2 be ? isn't that the KQ10 8th and out hand ?


I may be quibbling, but I'd assume a suit that would play for one loser (most of the time) opposite a void. Obviously this is a very narrow target, and I am not claiming to have a lot of experience with this hand-type ;) However, whenever we jump in a constructive auction, especially when not supporting partner, I think it pays to have a very narrow range of holdings to be shown.

Should it be, for example, AKQJxxx or KQJxxxxx? I don't know, but my gut tells me that it should be the holding that (a) most strongly suggests we play in this suit and (b) suggests that responder has no slam interest. AKQJxxx is a great suit for slam, including in notrump, should partner have a stiff, whereas KQJxxxxx is usually taking zero tricks if not trump....well, I am not ruling out one side entry, but the suit is definitely not a favourite to run for a lot of tricks.

Is there a meaningful difference between KQJxxxxx and KQ10xxxxx? I think so, if the message is how the suit rates to play opposite a void. I'd prefer KQJ10xxxx or KQJ9xxxx, but we don't get these hands enough for me to be too fussy, and you may already think I am splitting meaningless hairs.

Put another way, I'd like partner to feel that he could raise 4H without worrying about his hearts, after 1C 1H 2S 4H. He'd still need a remarkable hand, but he rates to have one after that start.
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#9 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 16:08

View Postmikeh, on 2018-September-14, 11:24, said:

Of course there are always those who post their idiosyncratic methods, which seem always to work on the hands, which leaves me wondering why those posters haven't won the past 10 world events.


I still play that 1 - 2 is strong after which slam is a breeze. Almost always a winner at imps and we lose a wjs. Big deal, I always had the same shape and a 12 count when partner made one.

The only reason I have not won the past 10 world championships is because the entry fees are too high.
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#10 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 16:17

View Postmikeh, on 2018-September-14, 11:24, said:

Of course there are always those who post their idiosyncratic methods, which seem always to work on the hands, which leaves me wondering why those posters haven't won the past 10 world events.


I could have won the last half dozen or so ACBL Championships relatively easily...

However, I decided to be nice and disclose that I cracked their silly little hand generator.

(Not sure if that counts as an idiosyncratic bidding method, however...)
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#11 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 20:05

View Postggwhiz, on 2018-September-14, 16:08, said:

I still play that 1 - 2 is strong after which slam is a breeze. Almost always a winner at imps and we lose a wjs. Big deal, I always had the same shape and a 12 count when partner made one.

The only reason I have not won the past 10 world championships is because the entry fees are too high.

Wjs are far from the only other use for 2H, btw
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#12 User is online   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 21:57

I don't see the opening hand as a 2 opener and would open 1 . I like to see minor suit 2 openers be at most 3 loser hands and major suit 2 opener's be no more than 4 loser hands.

As for the rest, mikeh has pretty much said it all.
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#13 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-September-14, 22:27

Three-suiters are notoriously hard to bid. Even a stronger hand than this it could still be right to open 1.
Three suiters play well if you find a fit so you may need to make 3 natural bids for best result.
If you have a way to show a 3-suiter after opening 2 is different but most don't.
Is perfect hand for a strong 2 three suiter bid if you want to wait 6 months for such a hand to come up if Multi isn't allowed.
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#14 User is offline   hamish32 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 03:16

For us 1!S after 1!C opening is forcing so:

1!C - 1!D
1!S - 1NT
3!D - 3!H
3!S - 4!D
4!H - 4NT
5!C - 6!H

1!C 2+!C if 16+ bal otherwise 5+!C
1!D transfer 4+ !H
1!S 5+!C 4!S unlimited
1NT 8+ relay
3!D 4135 or 4045 18+
3!H suit setting

The rest are cue or key card.
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#15 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 03:45

View Postmikeh, on 2018-September-14, 15:29, said:

I may be quibbling, but I'd assume a suit that would play for one loser (most of the time) opposite a void. Obviously this is a very narrow target, and I am not claiming to have a lot of experience with this hand-type ;) However, whenever we jump in a constructive auction, especially when not supporting partner, I think it pays to have a very narrow range of holdings to be shown.

Should it be, for example, AKQJxxx or KQJxxxxx? I don't know, but my gut tells me that it should be the holding that (a) most strongly suggests we play in this suit and (b) suggests that responder has no slam interest. AKQJxxx is a great suit for slam, including in notrump, should partner have a stiff, whereas KQJxxxxx is usually taking zero tricks if not trump....well, I am not ruling out one side entry, but the suit is definitely not a favourite to run for a lot of tricks.

Is there a meaningful difference between KQJxxxxx and KQ10xxxxx? I think so, if the message is how the suit rates to play opposite a void. I'd prefer KQJ10xxxx or KQJ9xxxx, but we don't get these hands enough for me to be too fussy, and you may already think I am splitting meaningless hairs.

Put another way, I'd like partner to feel that he could raise 4H without worrying about his hearts, after 1C 1H 2S 4H. He'd still need a remarkable hand, but he rates to have one after that start.


OK, different philosophy, I would play in a GF situation it's the worst hand imaginable for a 1 response unplayable anywhere else (and I don't play WJS)
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#16 User is offline   maartenxq 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 04:06

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2018-September-14, 06:27, said:


(1) since 1S is non forcing, I dont get it, but I was forced to play it
that way, and 1S nonforcing is more mainstream than 1S forcing

(4) what else, ... we have 31-33HCP between us, I have a 8 card suit
any heart with partner will be brilliant

First response already the best. In my view 1 would be forcing but the jump reverse serves to show a real powerhouse: lost of points no hand for 2
opening.

What else? Afraid to miss 7 of course. See no sensible way to reach that contract short of closing your eyes and blast it.

Maarten Baltussen
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#17 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 05:51

View Postel mister, on 2018-September-14, 03:55, said:

My wife showed me this hand she played at the club last night - matchpoint game, S is dealer. The room results suggested the bidding methods on display did not deliver. How would you tackle this, and how high do you want to get? Also, is this a 2C opener in your book?




1-12-44NT 5 6 simple direct and replaces a funny old muddle.4NT is RKCB and 5 shows 2 key cards.which MUST be the Ace and King of trumps.The grand slam would hinge on Q being doubleton a 42% chance.
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#18 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 05:55

View PostPhilG007, on 2018-September-15, 05:51, said:

1-12-44NT 5 7[hearts simple direct and replaces a funny old muddle.


If you want to play a very low percentage grand, should be 6[hearts] on the end when partner doesn't show the Q.
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#19 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 06:45

I play 1C 2H as gf, self sufficient suit which forces opener to cue. It doesnt come up often, but when it does it seems to be a good method to find slam.
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#20 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 07:13

View PostPhilG007, on 2018-September-15, 05:51, said:

The grand slam would hinge on Q being doubleton a 42% chance.


I would have thought that the odds of dropping Q are 33% (27% doubleton and 6% singleton).
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