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IMprecision relay interference

#1 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2018-September-01, 09:55

I think the notes say that doubles and redoubles by the asker are business. I'm a little uncertain how that works for the semipositives.

1C-2D (2H) pass is the relay ask?

1C-2D (2S) do you still try to relay here? Pass is asking, dbl is spades?

1C-1S (1N) and 1C-1S (2C) are tricky because opener may have just planned a 1N rebid. I'm guessing 2C is the relay ask for the first and dbl is the relay ask for the second?
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2018-September-01, 12:43

View Poststraube, on 2018-September-01, 09:55, said:

I think the notes say that doubles and redoubles by the asker are business. I'm a little uncertain how that works for the semipositives.

1C-2D (2H) pass is the relay ask?

1C-2D (2S) do you still try to relay here? Pass is asking, dbl is spades?

1C-1S (1N) and 1C-1S (2C) are tricky because opener may have just planned a 1N rebid. I'm guessing 2C is the relay ask for the first and dbl is the relay ask for the second?


This is only once we are actually in a relay sequence. We don't consider 1-Pass-<response> to be a relay sequence (the first relay is opener's second bid). So we mostly play natural things here, although I think we do play "systems on" over double.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#3 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2018-September-01, 16:10

ok great.

So I'm looking at section 2.8.2 which is discussing interference after a semipositive response. As an example of an overcall at the 2-level or below...

1C-1H (2D) ?

P-wants to penalize diamonds or takeout diamonds
.....dbl-the usual action
..........P-penalties
..........2N-weak takeout of diamonds
..........3D-strong takeout of diamonds
.....2H-5/5 6/4 or 4/6
.....2S-6S, nf
.....2N-GF, stopper
.....3C-5/5, 6/4, or 4/6
dbl-cooperative, usually Hxx
2H-hearts, nf
2S-spades, nf (possibly 3)
2N-diamond stopper and 3 spades, forcing
.....3S-minimum, could be 4-3 fit?
3C-clubs, nf
3D-void diamonds, may not have spade fit?
3H-GF natural
3S-GF fit
3N-to play
4C-GF natural

So opener's double essentially takes the place of a NT bid (i.e. it shows a stopper). Do I have these bids right? Is there a way for opener to ask for a stopper? Like maybe opener has runnable clubs. Maybe opener passes and then after a reopening double he cue bids?
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#4 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2018-September-03, 06:33

I've been thinking that relays would work nicely for the semipositives as long as the opponent didn't overcall more than one step above the relay ask.

1C-2C (2H)
.....P-GF relay
.....dbl-would have bid hearts (therefore penalty ok)
.....etc-system on

1C-2D (2S)
.....P-GF relay
.....dbl-would have bid spades (therefore penalty ok)

A possible problem is
1C-1N (2D)
.....P-GF relay
.....dbl-spades
.....2S-5/5 minors (could be a problem)
.....3D-diamonds (the bigger problem)
So use it anyway or give up on that one

1C-1H (1N)
.....P-GF relay
.....dbl-would have bid 1N (therefore penalty ok)
..........P-ok with penalty
..........systems on (transfers and such)

Now you have choices when they bid instead the relay bid. You can pass as your only relay ask and double as penalty or you can use pass as a relay ask with a doubleton or more in the suit and double as a relay ask short the suit (you have other options as well, like using pass and double of 1S to show whether a GF or not is taking place).

Let's say it goes
1C-1N (2C)
.....P-relay ask with 2+ clubs
..........dbl-penalty (4 good clubs), out of system
..........etc-systems on
.....dbl-relay ask short clubs
..........systems on

No big payoff there but maybe for 1C-2C (2D) you might find some 5-1 breaks.

I'm having trouble deciding the best meaning for pass and double when they bid the usual relay ask. Personally, I'm not fond of trying to gain steps because I'm afraid we'd get it mixed up (especially the relay breaks).

Lastly it goes
1C-1S (1N)
.....P-normal rebid with 4 hearts?
.....dbl-normal rebid without 4 hearts?
.....2C-relay ask
or
1C-1S (2C)
.....P-would have rebid 1N
..........dbl-stayman
..........systems on
.....dbl-relay ask
.....systems on
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#5 User is online   foobar 

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Posted 2018-September-03, 10:49

View Poststraube, on 2018-September-03, 06:33, said:

I've been thinking that relays would work nicely for the semipositives as long as the opponent didn't overcall more than one step above the relay ask.


Off the top of my head, my reaction to the suggestion is the exact opposite. The simple reasoning is that if an unopposed 1 - 2 - 2 sequence is NF, why should 1 - 2 - (2) - P end play us into a relay (that's ostensibly GF)?

Given the expected 17-19 balanced for opener and shapely 5 HCPs for the 2 response, (2) might be our best spot.

View Poststraube, on 2018-September-03, 06:33, said:

Personally, I'm not fond of trying to gain steps because I'm afraid we'd get it mixed up (especially the relay breaks).


Completely agree with this approach, but only *after* relays have been established (and assuming it's so in this situation is a really bad idea IMO).
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#6 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2018-September-03, 12:09

View Postfoobar, on 2018-September-03, 10:49, said:


Given the expected 17-19 balanced for opener and shapely 5 HCPs for the 2 response, (2) might be our best spot.


Certainly possible.

Have you any thought about how to cope with something like 1C-1S (2H)?
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#7 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2018-September-03, 12:21

My recollection is that we gave up on these cooperative penalty doubles and just play X as takeout and pass as technically NF (but partner will often balance).

If opponents make the cheapest call it makes some sense to use pass=relay, but I think I would not want to be in a force over a higher call necessarilly.
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#8 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2018-September-03, 13:11

What do you think of using double as an artificial game force? Sort of like a relay.

The difficulty for takeout is waiting for takeout shape and then questionable usefulness to responder when one has it. For example 1C-1S (2H) dbl as takeout is the wrong hand describing and responder is only interested in diamonds or minors.

iíve also been looking at dbl as support at the 2-level for 1H responses. It seems useful but doesnít handle hands without 3 spades.

Also looked at dbl as diamond support (4or5) after 1S interference. It has some wins but doesnít pick up clubs etc
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#9 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2018-September-04, 08:41

Since 1C-1S promises 2 diamonds (and handles all the 4H/5D, 4C/5D and 6D hands), do opener's bids of diamonds in competition count as raises?

1C-1S (2H) ?

dbl-takeout, short hearts and mostly promising tolerance for minors
2S-nf
2N-stopper, gf
3C-clubs, gf
3D-nf!
3H-diamond fit, stopper ask, could be clubs too
3S-GF (probably 6 unless wrong shape to double)
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Posted 2018-September-06, 22:11

For those who open 1D promising two diamonds (11-15), how do you play...

1D (2H) ?

Is 3D forcing or is it competing in diamonds? Is 1D (2H) 3H a diamond fit and stopper ask?
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#11 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2018-September-12, 14:01

I'm leaning towards using double as penalty after semipositive responses. Double makes most sense for the higher semipositives and least for the lower.

Let's say it goes 1C-2S (3D) in which responder shows a 3-suited hand short clubs....opener is in great position for a penalty double.

After 1C-2D (3D) in which responder shows 4+H/5+C opener is in a good position to double for penalty...and if opener were to double for takeout, responder could rarely pass for penalty.

Same goes for 1C-1S (2S). If double is takeout here, responder will never pass because he will have at most three spades and will be under declarer.

The auction 1C-2C denies a 4-cd major. What would double as takeout mean after 1C-2C (2H)? 5S and 4+D? I.e. can responder rebid 2S here with 3 spades? He'll never pass 2H doubled.

For the auction 1C-1S (2H) if double is takeout, does that promise 5 spades and 4 diamonds? Can responder rebid 2S here with a 3-cd holding (he can't have 4 spades)? If double is takeout, responder may occasionally pass (holding a beefy 4-cd heart suit), but if double is penalty here, then responder's balancing double would also be penalty. Let's say it goes 1C-1S (2H) P P dbl would suggest a max with 4 hearts here and opener could pass cooperatively instead of responder making a unilateral decision after 1C-1S (2H) dbl P.

I'm waffling a bit for 1C-1H auctions. Responder can have a wider variety of shapes here including both majors.

Say 1C (1H) 2D ?

If double is takeout here, it seems to me that it's really responsive...promising hearts and clubs. Only somewhat common depending on what is promised. Opener has a 2H bid available here and could choose that with 5H/4C (for example).

I've been looking at using dbl here as

1) support (=3S) which is frequent but not a huge win. Usually it's a 4-3 fit but occasionally this empowers responder to compete or bid game in spades.
2) artificial GF which is infrequent but lets opener rebid 3C as non-forcing.
3) a transfer. Shows 5 hearts which lets opener have a rebid. If dbl is hearts, presumably 2H shows something else (clubs?)
4) takeout (promises 3 spades as well as hearts and clubs). Just not super-common
5) responsive (only hearts and clubs). Also not super-common
6) Lebensohl
7) penalty. If I set 2D as promising 6 then it's infrequent. If 2D can be 5 it comes up often enough


If I were to use dbl here as penalty, I would probably use...

dbl-penalty
2H-hearts, nf
2S-spades, nf, often 3 if the hand can take the tap
2N-GF, stopper
3C-GF, clubs
3D-GF, 5H/5C
3H-GF, 5 hearts (usually 6 in practice)
3S-GF, 4 spades

...the main point being using the cue bid to show a responsive type hand.

Not sure penalty is right at all here, but it would be easier to remember.

Thoughts?
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#12 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2018-September-13, 08:33

I guess our takeout double style is strange to you. It is almost a pass/double inversion, which gives extra options. The idea is:

X = I would like to bid on but am not sure about the right strain
Pass = we might want to defend; Iím either very min without obvious fit or I have a pure penalty double
Bid = good hand with something to say
Raise = competitive (but bidding diamonds after 1S response is not a ďraiseĒ)
Cue = raise but GF

In an auction like 1C-2D-(2S) the double is typically 3352 or 4342 with bad spades or similar. With 3415 it will often be left in; with 4-6 or 5-5 it is removed to the suit with an extra card, etc.

The benefit of this style is that both pass and double have various continuations while a penalty double just ends all auctions. The only real downside is if opener has a penalty double and responder is minimum with length in the opposing suit (since we donít play pass as forcing we can potentially defend here).
Adam W. Meyerson
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#13 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2018-September-13, 21:32

Thanks. From memory, your doubles don't promise a rebid. Do your doubles tend to be takeout or responsive?

E.g. what patterns can 1C-1H(2H) dbl be?

A. 1-2-5-5
B. 2-1-5-5
C. 2-2-5-4
D. 3-2-4-4

My guess is that you haven't defined this, but you probably have an opinion on it. The central question is whether spade tolerance is promised or not.

Curious about this auction, too....

1C-1H (2H) P P 3C

I assume is nf. Forcing bids would be 1) dbl 2) cue bids) 3) jump rebids (3S) 4) reverses (not possible here)
How about 1C-1H (2H) P P 2N?
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#14 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2018-September-15, 23:24

My understanding is that after 1C-2D (2S)

P-minimum, trapping or awkward
dbl-extra values, no fit for H/C, bad spades, typically 4342 or 3352, doesn't promise a rebid
2N-GF, stopper
3C-fit, nf
3D-GF, diamonds
3H-fit, nf
3S-cue bid for some suit, maybe hearts?

So I ran 100 hands for 1C-2D (2S) giving RHO exactly 6 spades and 7+ hcps and opener 19+ hcps. There were zero doubles for that. So of course many/most hands have a club or heart fit and I ran another 100 hands eliminating 4+ hearts and 3+ clubs. I found two doubles there.

If I were to drop opener's hcp to the 16/17 base for a strong club and allowed for fitting hands, double would be a very infrequent bid.

How about if double were just an artificial GF that denied a more descriptive bid? Maybe opener could have 3 clubs but not a heart fit. Maybe opener could have spades stopped.

So it would be

P-minimum, trapping or awkward
dbl-GF, no heart fit or club super-fit
2N-GI (about 19) with double stop or single stop and a source of tricks (diamonds here), not interested in penalizing 2S
3C-fit, nf
3D-natural, nf
3H-fit, nf
3S-?
3N-?
4C-?
4D-?

Really not sure how to arrange cue bids and jumps but if dbl is to be flexible, then these higher bids need to be very directional for things.
To be consistent with other semipositive interference, probably...

3S-GF heart fit
3N-please don't disturb
4C-GF, club fit
4D-GF, good diamonds, not interested in having double passed out (i.e. short spades)

Anyway, for this, we get two ways of introducing diamonds (forcing and nf) and an invitational 2N

If opener passes around to responder, a balancing double would be takeout or flexible, GF. Opener wouldn't be expected to pass or takeout but not jump and responder would sometimes make a rebid.

Probably a balancing 2N would be invitational with a stopper. With a better hand and a stopper, responder would double first (jackpot if opener passes for penalty) and convert to 3N. Maybe 2N by responder would be better as Lebensohl. idk
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#15 User is offline   DinDIP 

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Posted 2018-September-17, 18:10

View Poststraube, on 2018-September-06, 22:11, said:

For those who open 1D promising two diamonds (11-15), how do you play...

1D (2H) ?

Is 3D forcing or is it competing in diamonds? Is 1D (2H) 3H a diamond fit and stopper ask?


When I've played a Precision-like system we treated the 1 opening as though the opening was a weak notrump and used Rubensohl. The only exception was that
1 (2) 2
was forcing, including because we played 3 as a weak jump (less than INV values), as it would be over lower interference.
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