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Sayc Openers rebid

#1 User is offline   rg14 

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Posted 2018-July-27, 04:33

1 diamond - 2 clubs
2 NT

What is openers range in this sequence ?
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-July-27, 06:36

The Sayc Booklet says 12-14 but it also says it is forcing, which is a bit of a contradiction since responder could have a balanced 11-count.

I think the easiest way to get around this is to play a direct 2NT response to the 1 opening as 11 points. But that has to be agreed since the booklet defines the 2nt response as 13-15.
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#3 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2018-July-27, 07:32

In general the way around this problem is opener's rebid of his suit. So for example 1-2-2NT is forcing, so with a minimum opener bids 1-2-2. Then responder with a balanced invite can rebid 2NT and we can play there. The auction from this post is even more counter-intuitive, in that you may have to rebid 2 on a four (or even three) card suit. But I still think this is the best way to slow down the auction without enough to accept an invite. In fact I usually play that 2NT in these auctions is 18-19 and with 12-14 I rebid the original suit.

Do most people who claim to play "SAYC" on BBO know this / agree with this? Surely not. In fact I'd bet that a strong majority think that 1-2-2NT and 1-2-2NT are non-forcing (even though the notes are quite clear that responder promises a rebid if below game).
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a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#4 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2018-July-27, 14:05

View Posthelene_t, on 2018-July-27, 06:36, said:

The Sayc Booklet says 12-14 but it also says it is forcing, which is a bit of a contradiction since responder could have a balanced 11-count.

I think the easiest way to get around this is to play a direct 2NT response to the 1 opening as 11 points. But that has to be agreed since the booklet defines the 2nt response as 13-15.

I would believe same (12-14 or 18-19, in the latter case, opener makes further noise, 3NT being some kind of 4441 15-17).
To avoid tricky 23-points game, it is advisable:
1) to avoid bidding 2C with invite hands with 5 clubs; they should try to bid 2NT if not overly frightened by majors (eg Jxx KQx xx AJxxx)
2) to avoid bidding 2NT with 12 unless very good M stoppers or 3-cd D sui only; it is too dangerous to rebid a 3-cd suit (if you have that, then you are 44 M and probably stop well « enough »)
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#5 User is offline   jfnrl 

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Posted 2018-July-29, 12:55

This
http://ghbridge.free...php?choix=EA12W
could be useful if you read french (the problem is the same in SEF).

In few words, 2M in the auction
1D 2C
2D 2M
is ambiguous showing a real suit or a stopper (looking for a stopper in the oM)

Now,
1D 2C
2D 2M
3M
shows 4 cards M without stopper in oM
1D 2C
2D 2M
3NT
shows both
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#6 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-July-29, 13:33

View Postjfnrl, on 2018-July-29, 12:55, said:

This
http://ghbridge.free...php?choix=EA12W
could be useful if you read french (the problem is the same in SEF).

In few words, 2M in the auction
1D 2C
2D 2M
is ambiguous showing a real suit or a stopper (looking for a stopper in the oM)

Now,
1D 2C
2D 2M
3M
shows 4 cards M without stopper in oM
1D 2C
2D 2M
3NT
shows both


I don't play SEF, but as I understand it 1D 2C is GF unless opener rebids 2D... in that sense it is different to the SAYC problem (not to say mess).
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#7 User is offline   jfnrl 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 01:41

View Postpescetom, on 2018-July-29, 13:33, said:

I don't play SEF, but as I understand it 1D 2C is GF unless opener rebids 2D... in that sense it is different to the SAYC problem (not to say mess).

Right.
i thought that it was the same thing in SAYC

"NOTE: Responder promises to bid again if he responded with a new suit at the two
level unless opener’s rebid is at the game level. This applies when responder is an
unpassed hand.
1 — 2
2 = forcing one round. Responder can limit his hand by bidding 2, 2NT,
3, or 3 at this point. He should not pass, since opener could have 18
points (just short of a jump shift rebid)." (SAYC booklet)
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#8 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 06:39

View Postjfnrl, on 2018-July-30, 01:41, said:

Right.
i thought that it was the same thing in SAYC

"NOTE: Responder promises to bid again if he responded with a new suit at the two
level unless opener’s rebid is at the game level. This applies when responder is an
unpassed hand.
1 — 2
2 = forcing one round. Responder can limit his hand by bidding 2, 2NT,
3, or 3 at this point. He should not pass, since opener could have 18
points (just short of a jump shift rebid)." (SAYC booklet)


Responder promises to bid again.
That's not the same thing as GF.
If his rebid limits his hand then opener can pass, or at least that's how I understand SAYC.
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#9 User is offline   jfnrl 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 12:57

View Postpescetom, on 2018-July-30, 06:39, said:

Responder promises to bid again.
That's not the same thing as GF.
If his rebid limits his hand then opener can pass, or at least that's how I understand SAYC.


This concerns only 2 auctions (forcing in SEF; NF in SAYC if I understand well) :

1D 2C
2NT 3C

1D 2C
2NT 3D

The + of playing the first NF is that 2NT may show any 12-14 balanced (2D promising 5 cards)
I don't the merit of playing the second NF
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#10 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-July-30, 13:31

View Postjfnrl, on 2018-July-30, 12:57, said:

I don't the merit of playing the second NF

The only merit I can see is that it is intuitive following natural logic and that the possibility to stop at 3-level gives more freedom to explore at 2-level.
But it is still a poor system choice IMO, not that SAYC was really designed as a system anyway.
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