BBO Discussion Forums: Bidding Response - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Bidding Response 4 card major ahead of 6/5 card minor

#1 User is offline   navalpatel 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 2011-September-22

Posted 2018-July-11, 06:05


I find it rather strange that after you have bid, the partner, who has a decent hand to respond with, bids his major suit before his minor, no matter how strong or weak the major is. In a recent game with a Robot as partner, I opened 1D with 14 HCP, 5 card-D, 3253 distribution. The response was 1H with H9,7,5,2 while holding a strong CA,Q,J,10,8,7,3. With opponents intervening, I raised H with A, 10, 8 and our strong Club content was ignored.
We play Length over status and it works. There is a possible down side in that the contract level may be one higher this way, but length caters for this adverse policy.
0

#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,327
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2018-July-11, 07:35

Normally a bid at the 2 level promises extra strength.

I believe everybody would respond 1 to 1 with xxxx, x, xx, KQJxxx if they don't play weak jump shifts (and some still would rather than hide a 4 card major), nobody would respond 2.

How much extra strength is promised depends on system, for some a 2/1 is forcing to game, to others it merely promises 9 or 10.
0

#3 User is offline   fromageGB 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,364
  • Joined: 2008-April-06

Posted 2018-July-11, 07:39

I think you have to consider that often you may be making the same number of tricks in either suit, so at matchpoints you want to be in the major. Most people will I reckon bid the major when weak, and perhaps the minor if good enough to show the major by rebid. That depends on the suits held : with your example if responder bid 2 initially and heard 2 from you, then he needs strength to bid 2, but on a different hand if you had opened 1 and he had 4 hearts as well as clubs, it would be safer to bid 2 initially at any strength, because opener would rebid hearts with 4, rather than spades again.

In your example, perhaps you could have made a support double with only 3 cards - I assume you mean 2353 shdc rather than 3253. After 1 (pass) 1 (1), X then he will happily rebid 2 rather than hearts.
0

#4 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,243
  • Joined: 2003-May-14

Posted 2018-July-11, 10:17

View Postnavalpatel, on 2018-July-11, 06:05, said:


I find it rather strange that after you have bid, the partner, who has a decent hand to respond with, bids his major suit before his minor, no matter how strong or weak the major is. In a recent game with a Robot as partner, I opened 1D with 14 HCP, 5 card-D, 3253 distribution. The response was 1H with H9,7,5,2 while holding a strong CA,Q,J,10,8,7,3. With opponents intervening, I raised H with A, 10, 8 and our strong Club content was ignored.
We play Length over status and it works. There is a possible down side in that the contract level may be one higher this way, but length caters for this adverse policy.


The general rule for most 2/1 natural bidders these days is to respond with majors ahead of minors except when having enough to force to game, in which case the minor is bid if longer than the major. There are several reasons for this:
  • majors score more for the same number of tricks, and at higher levels even for fewer tricks, this is huge at MP. And for game, 10 tricks is usually easier to make than 11, so you really don't want to miss your major fit if opener is strongish.,
  • NT also often scores more than minors, if you can run your suit and the opps can't take too many of their own first. 3nt is often where you want to be; 5m is the game of last resort
  • in a partscore battle, it is easier to buy it for 2M than 2m, because the opps will tend to balance over 2m. It's important to find your 2M fits so that they have to drive to the 3 level vs. you have to drive to the 3 level
  • If you bid your long suit first, 1d-2c, then your major, this is GF in practically all natural methods. These days people play that 1d-2c itself establishes a GF. So if you bid 2C you will tend to get too high, since partner won't ever pass you below 3nt. 1d-3c could work on certain hands, but these days this is played as invitational, so if you choose to bid 3c on weaker, again you can get overboard, and also if partner passes this sometimes you have missed your major fit which is also usually disastrous.
  • If partner opened 1c, it is easier to bid 1d with longer diamonds than major with weak hands, than 1d-2c, since 1c-1d doesn't create a GF. This is playable, if you play old fashioned up-the-line bidding where opener will continue with 4 cd major at the 1 level. But these days people play "Walsh" where diamonds are normally concealed in favor of the major. This allows for opener to rebid 1nt over 1d with balanced hands including one or both majors, which conceals the major length from the opponents, giving them less information for their opening lead vs. 1nt. Also it finds your major fits immediately which can work out better when 4th hand is about to preempt. It does make diamond partials harder to find, but most people seem OK with this tradeoff.

Now when you are this lopsided, 4-7, and weakish (I'll assume no other high cards in the hand, 1417), there is some merit in suppressing the major, because that will make it easier to get to clubs on some auctions, plus the fact that often clubs plays better even if partner does have 4-4 fit for you (if you get tapped in spades and unable to enjoy long suit). if you start with 1H, the problem is if it goes like 1d-1h-1s, with some sets of agreements there is no way to suggest long clubs and signoff; club bids would be forcing to game or invitational and imply 5 hearts, and you'd be forced to bid 1nt. You need to be playing xyz or some method where 3c = signoff to get to clubs . But it's still problematic since 1d-2c is GF, and 1d-3c is invitational, in most methods, which would tend to drive too high. Also 1d-1nt is non-forcing, so you may not be able to get to bid your clubs; you have to hope an opponent or partner has a bid over 1nt, or if it gets passed out that partner has a few clubs and you get to enjoy the suit.
But in general with less freakish distributions it is normal to bid the major.

As mentioned by fromageGB on your actual hand as it developed, a support double would have allowed clubs to be brought into play.
0

#5 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,243
  • Joined: 2003-May-14

Posted 2018-July-11, 10:18

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-July-11, 07:35, said:

Normally a bid at the 2 level promises extra strength.

I believe everybody would respond 1 to 1 with xxxx, x, xx, KQJxxx if they don't play weak jump shifts (and some still would rather than hide a 4 card major), nobody would respond 2.


I wouldn't. I would bid 1nt forcing, so I can bid 3c later. Otherwise it goes 1h-1s-2d-? like 80% of the time and you are hating life.

0

#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,327
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2018-July-11, 15:33

View PostStephen Tu, on 2018-July-11, 10:18, said:

I wouldn't. I would bid 1nt forcing, so I can bid 3c later. Otherwise it goes 1h-1s-2d-? like 80% of the time and you are hating life.


Except that much of the world doesn't HAVE 1N forcing available and it goes 1-1N pass, your hand makes one trick and partner with 4 bigger spades than yours too.
0

#7 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,067
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2018-July-11, 16:05

First of all, I assume the intervening bid was since you have and partner has and . With a minimum range hand, you don't have tp raise immediately on 3 and probably shouldn't. If the hand is passed back to partner, partner can now reopen the auction with 2 and you can bid 2 showing 3. When partner rebids 3 over 2 , you can pass knowing you're in at least a 5-3 fit. Had partner a hand worth 11-12 with 6 and 4 , it would be normal for partner to bid 2 first and then reverse into over 2 . Since that didn't happen you know partner holds less than that.

It's normal to prefer bidding a 4 card major at the 1 level because of the great importance of finding major suit games.
0

#8 User is offline   fromageGB 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,364
  • Joined: 2008-April-06

Posted 2018-July-12, 04:37

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-July-11, 15:33, said:

Except that much of the world doesn't HAVE 1N forcing available...

Which national jurisdictions forbid this? I am surprised.

If it is just a question of which system methods you choose, it is inevitable there will be hands better suited for some methods and poor for others. I too would choose a forcing 1NT (or in my case an equivalent forcing Kaplan 1). If partner continued with 1NT of course I convert to clubs, and luckily for us on this hand we play 1 1, 2 as showing four spades, and lacking a Gazzilli 2, so it really is a case of choice of methods.
0

#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,327
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2018-July-12, 05:13

View PostfromageGB, on 2018-July-12, 04:37, said:

Which national jurisdictions forbid this? I am surprised.



I meant in the systems they play, standard american and Acol being 2 obvious ones.
0

#10 User is offline   dokoko 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 156
  • Joined: 2017-May-30

Posted 2018-July-21, 00:27

There are pros and cons with each style.

With a partner of your choice agree on whatever you are both happy with. With a random partner, however, you should accept the implications of the agreed system because it's more fun (and usually more rewarding) being on the same wavelength. When playing with a robot you may do as you like.
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users